sincere question .....What could make you believe in God ? (page 2)

Dagney

If everybody who said god speaks to them had the same message, same requirements, same rules...then I could believe one guy is directing everything.

TheUbermensch

Yikes, to be so narrowed minded...to not see that THIS (what we know today) is NOT everything that there is to know...yikes !

....... I'm sorry, are you saying that even if God doesn't demonstrate traits defined by his believers on a measurable scale, that doesn't matter because we just don't know everything? YIKES. To not know who you're worshipping, what a waste.

cofty

Please discuss why you don't believe in God and that which could convince you to believe in God

When we were JWs we had to work hard to sustain our belief and supress inconvenient facts. After I left I became an evanglical christian for about 9 years. It eventually occurred to me that I was doing the same sort of mental gynmnastics to protect my faith in god. When I applied the same intellectual honesty to my faith in god it failed just as my trust in the Watchtower had previously.

The trigger for me was the problem of theodicy. I studied deeply and wresteld with if for a long time before concluding there was no honest answer to the question. I did not base my decision on the sort of pathetic apologetics we see from some of our more prolific posters on this forum. Nevertheless I concluded that even the best theologians are vaccuous when it comes to difficult questions.

The Asian tsunami was the final straw, I remember exactly where I was when I "deconverted" there was a specific moment.

I did not so much go on to discover the failings in the bible I just owned up to then for the first time. I also immersed myself in science and discovered that god is at best surplus to requirements.

Proof of the supernatural would be very easy indeed for god if he existed. According to the NT he delighted in supporting the apostles preaching with all sorts of signs and wonders. Modern day calims of miarcles are invariably dishonest or delusional.

Liberty

Since the basic "nature" of the Universe is cruel and uncaring we can only hope that there is no intelligent being responsible for it's creation. We can observe that all the living things known to us are subject to a myriad of horrific conditions which would clearly be considered torture if it were inflicted by another self aware and intelligent being upon them.

The Universe and all living things in it look exactly as one would expect if they arose from random chance rather than an intelligent plan. Birth defects, genetic disorders, the need to eat other living things which are constantly in short supply and/or are hard to get, the need to drink fresh water on a planet covered mostly in undrinkable salt water or deserts, extremes of heat and cold, beings like whales which are fully aquatic but must come up to breath air, parasites, disease, toxins, pain, death, etc. all speak to a non-intelligent origin or an incrediably cruel and sadistic one.

If God exists He has also chosen to either not communicate with us at all or has chosen a confusing array of puzzling books, beliefs, and religions which are self-condradictory and highly illogical. They illustrate a tantrum throwing child who is all-powerful yet demands we powerless apish primtives worship Him. It would be like me demanding that ants recognize me as a superior or I would stomp on and burn them while ranting about how ungrateful they are.

If God did reveal Himself in some incontrovertable way to me it would not change my opinion about His cruelty and stupidity so I'm not sure it would mean much to me. He deserves to be diposed by revolutionaries. I don't believe in the literal Devil but consider it very telling that the closest and most intelligent mythical intimates of God (the Devil and his demons) could not stand Him either and reject his cruel and ego-maniacle rule and defy Him.

Luckily , the evidence is pretty conclusive that such a being as God does not exist so I sleep much better knowing it is just random chance which is unconsciously cruel and coldly impersonal.

Just a quick explaination about a complex subject.

ziddina

Aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggh....

I HATE questions like this...

They are SO damned SIMPLISTIC!!

FIRST of all - WHICH 'god'????

And while we're at it, let's throw in GODDESSES, too - because many GODDESSES were worshipped LONG BEFORE the male 'gods' came along!!

Look, the very fact that I KNOW that the bible 'god' is one of the YOUNGEST constructs - male deity fantasies - ever to be generated on the planet, completely negates the possibility that I would EVER believe in it - er, 'him'...

Zid

undercover

: "the very fact that I KNOW that the bible 'god' is one of the YOUNGEST constructs - male deity fantasies - ever to be generated on the planet, completely negates the possibility that I would EVER believe in it - er, 'him'..."

Yea, but Bible God, Quran God and Jewish God are still around while all those ancient god(dess)s are forgotten. So there's more to say for the newbie gods than the old timers.

But it doesn't matter which God. Any god that shows up and proves his/her existence wins.

He would have to show up sorta like the aliens did in V or Independance Day. A physical presence that is undeniable and a demonstration of power that leaves you in awe. "Now witness the fire power of this fully armed and operational diety"

ShadesofGrey

Nice discussion so far. $100. lol!

After I left I became an evanglical christian for about 9 years. It eventually occurred to me that I was doing the same sort of mental gynmnastics to protect my faith in god. When I applied the same intellectual honesty to my faith in god it failed just as my trust in the Watchtower had previously. Yes, I can very much see this happening.

I did not so much go on to discover the failings in the bible I just owned up to then for the first time. That doesn't bother me, which is funny, because when I was a JW I did not have a relationship with God and I fiercely defended the Bible as perfect. I don't have a relationship with the Bible and don't believe that it is perfect.

I also immersed myself in science and discovered that god is at best surplus to requirements. Forgive my ignorance. What does surplus to requirements mean?

Proof of the supernatural would be very easy indeed for god if he existed. According to the NT he delighted in supporting the apostles preaching with all sorts of signs and wonders. Oh don't worry. He will.

8 The fourth poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire. 9 Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

10 Then the fifth poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, 11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

A member of Christ's body,

ShadesofGrey

Qcmbr

I'm willing to trust that any god who cared enough about me would also know what would convert me and what wouldn't. Therefore I am happy to accept that one day a god will surprise me with something utterly persuasive to me or no god exists who cares about me and so ill return that favour.

ShadesofGrey

". . .If believers in, say, the Mormon faith, or the Baha'i faith, or the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, were found to be far healthier, wealthier, and happier than believers in other faiths, if their prayers came true significantly more often, if they had far fewer accidents and birth defects and genetic diseases and pediatric cancer -- and this difference was statistically significant, much greater than could be accounted for by higher wealth or social status or something -- I would be persuaded that God existed, and that this faith was the correct one, and that God was rewarding these believers for the correctness of their faith."

See to me this makes no sense because the test is finding Christ despite religion.

I know this OP is not directed to me, so I actually did not answer it with what made me believe in God. I will try not to be bothersome, honestly.

caliber

The fathers of Science, such as Newton, Galileo, Kepler, Gilbert, Copernicus and Einstein held a firm belief in God and openly professed their belief (Caputo, 2000 ) If scientific proof is the bases for belief why is this so... do you think ?

sincere question .....What could make you believe in God ?

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