by highdose 66 Replies latest jw friends
Sonny.alfaro,
I feel like that too sometimes, I wonder if there is so much wrong about the witnesses could they possibly be right about anything?
Things are not going the way the Watchtower said it would. Babylon the Great should have fallen by now, JWs should have been attacked and the identity of the King of the North would have been known, but none of this has happened.
Cofty - Thanks for uploading the video of Prof Bart Erhman. I found it very educational and i learned a lot, although my conclusions might be different from yours. Here are my thoughts:
1) There are 30,000+ differences among the 5,700 manuscripts currently available, majority of them insignificant and don't really matter as they don't change the essence of the message, but rather 'accidental' mistakes
2) Comparing all those manuscripts, you find both 'accidental' mistakes (i.e., spelling) and 'deliberate' additions/omissions in the texts. Both has been identified, and the text re-adjusted to represent possibly the more accurate translation if compared to the original which no longer exist. For example, he mentioned about one verse in Mark's gospel quoting Isaiah the prophet, although it was later found that the quote actually came from Exodus, and not from Isaiah. And so, it was not adjusted, by just saying coming from the prophets, to make it more accurate. Did it come from Isaiah? Maybe not. One of the prophets? More likely so. Problem solved. Did it changed the essence of the story? Not really. This shows that the abundance of the manuscripts, though filled with differences, helps to refine the text to probably match the original form.
3) One of the major differences (note he did not say errors and/or untrustworthiness) of the manuscripts is about Mary saying 'your father and i' changed to 'we' or 'Joseph and I'. Did this change the whole essence of the bible? I can't see the issue here. Whatever the original is, whether the former or the latter, it doesn't change the whole essense of the narrative. Let us not lose the forest from the trees.
4) The prostitute story, including the 8 verses in Mark's account are found to be an addition in later manuscripts. That's good news. Again, it's a refinement we should be thankful about.
5) I do not see any problem in the crucifixion story. If Mark seems to indicate Jesus was pretty quiet during the whole process, but Luke mentioned a few more details, again, it doesn't invalidate that the crucifixion occured. The important thing is, it happened. Jesus died, gave his life for us to have everlasting life (including our friend Prof Bart), now whether he was saying nothing, or said a few words in the process, it doesn't matter. The important thing in the narrative is his actual death. That's the whole essence of the Messiah. For him to die so we can live. That's it. The same thing with the women who saw him resurrected. Whether one woman, or two women saw him, it doesn't matter, the important thing is, he was resurrected.
Sorry, but i do not see any reason why Prof Bart's arguments can invalidate the whole theme of the bible as a complete, solid whole, including, the importance of the ransom by Jesus Christ.
By the way, is Prof Bart Jewish by any chance?
Aussie Oz.
Unless the bible is true, that the end of human rule has come, and God's kingdom will soon come. That's also a possibility we cannot completely cross off. With the complexity of the universe, not to mention the wonderful functioning of the whole system, e.g., gravity, digestive system in humans, the complexitiy of the eye, the functioning of the brain etc, the possibility that there is a 'designer' cannnot be completely crossed off.
And if there is a 'designer' and a 'creator', then the possibility of the truthfulness of the bible narrative must be taken into consideration as well.
These are the possibilities we cannot 'completely' deny because honestly, we don't really know. We can only hope. We can only believe. We can only have faith.
Ziddina,
The prophecy was there, written down and documented for our perusal. The prophecy was clear, there is a coming Great Tribulation before Armageddon. This is not a JW invention, it is there in the ancient book. The JWs interpreted that the countdown started in 1914 culminating to its very end, and we're almost there (according to the JW teaching).
Are world events seems to support this argument? It looks like it. Can we absolutely dismiss the theory of Great Tribulation? Is there a possibility that the bible might be correct on this ancient prophecy? It's a possibility we cannot completely deny.
[face/palm slap]
What, did you completely miss the point of my post?
The Watchtower Corporation and a few other "fundie" Christian sects are the ones who are claiming that RIGHT NOW is the period of time "just" before "Armageddon"...
YOUR perceptions have been SHAPED by the WATCHTOWER Corporation - you are STILL a Jehovah's Witness or have just ceased being one, right??? You need to UNPLUG YOUR BRAIN FROM THEIR DOGMA first, and THEN learn anew about the bible...
The 1968 edition of The Truth book contained subtle quotes pointing to the fact that the world could not survive past 1975.
"Back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acherson declared that our time is "a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence" And he warned: "I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in fifteen years from today this world is going to be too dangerous to live in"" The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life p.9 1968 edition
Likewise the 1968 edition contained a quote from the book Famine--1975! referring to how unlivable the world would be by 1975.
""By 1975 civil disorder, anarchy, military dictatorships, runaway inflation, transportation breakdowns and chaotic unrest will be the order of the day in many of the hungry nations.""The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life pp.88-89
Home - Heart is the Key
sonny, I've just come back to see how this thread progressed and I was fascinated by your responses to various postings.
It is clear your world view dovetails primarily with the Witnesses. Or at the very least with a strongly American apocolyptic view of Christianity.
You need to be O.K. with what you believe, but don't be too quick to dismiss the views and experience of others here.
Whilst I am happy to have left the JW's and have many reasons to avoid religion like the plague I accept you have a desire to find something special or exciting in the Bible prophecies as interpreted by the WTS.
But there is a comment you made that shows your thinking is set and may prevent an open minded consideration of any other point of view; - "...because honestly, we don't really know. We can only hope. We can only believe. We can only have faith."
This is black and white thinking. Hope, belief and faith are subjective and intangible concepts. Millions of people can't get through their day without these concepts, and millions more enjoy life and a future because they have no need to 'believe'.
You know, there is nothing wrong with being confused. But being dogmatic about treasured beliefs can only end badly.
Regards
the possibility that there is a 'designer' cannnot be completely crossed off.
Actually it can. It will take a lot of time and effort to understand the facts about evolution but its the most rewarding thing you will do. You are still plugged in to the matrix, knowledge will free you, open your mind.
What about all the examples of bad design?
You have rejected the evidence of contradictions in the bible without considering them objectively. We can get into it if you want?
You still haven't suggested a single bible prophecy that you find convincing.
