How Judicial Committees Violate Individual Privacy

by Londo111 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Many here have called for public judicial committees, which would indeed add to transparency. But--every person deserves a measure of privacy, and to be able to keep their dirty laundry from public view. Why should everyone know the details of very personal matters, perhaps involving private struggles and family secrets?

    The fact is: the way judicial matters are handled currently can totality violate a person's privacy. Of course, officially, it is said that if you confess a matter to the elders, everything will be totally confidential, and everything will be handled with the utmost discretion. I have found out firsthand that it entirely NOT the case.

    Now…I am NOT talking about acts of predation of any sort, that is another matter altogether. We have clearly seen that the organization has seriously mishandled those cases, but I am mainly referencing more 'mundane' matters that become judicial cases. Thus, I ask the matter of predation fall outside of the scope of discussion.

    #

    FIRST off…why are there RECORDS of these matters? Doesn't God forgive and forget? Then, so shouldn't the organization? It is written, "As far off as the sunrise is from the sunset, so far off from us he has put our transgressions." But if a person moves to another congregation, their records follow, and whatever deeds they did will follow them. More people (albeit officially elders) get a chance to learn of what they've done, things that were supposed to have been forgiven and forgotten.

    In theory, these records won't leak out…but having physical documentation, it just takes ONE act of carelessness, and that cat is out of the bag. For instance, when I was a ministerial servant, we had several congregations meeting in one hall. I was in charge of the sound and I came in early to set up. I noticed a folder sitting in a chair, opened it to find out whose it was. In it, I saw a number of names, some that I knew, along with words like, "confessed to…" I immediately shut the folder and moved it to a secure location. A few minutes later the elder from the preceding congregation came into the hall, huffing and puffing, and anxiously looking for the folder. I gave it to him and he thanked me profusely. Inside my mind, I shook my head in disgust at his carelessness.

    Perhaps former (or current) elders can bespeak to what sorts of documentation is kept? Because it was apparent that not only did these things go into an individual's record, they seem to keep a consolidated list of judicial matters? The more sorts of documentation kept, the more they can be misplaced. To this day, I am very happy that I only saw enough of that folder to close it, and somehow the glance did not give me a list of names AND deeds together.

    Once, a friend of mine who was attempting to date a 'sister', and those close to her said, "I want to first speak to two elders in your congregation." Basically, he had to pass a 'background check'. Which was no matter to him, he had nothing to hide, and he let them speak to the elders in his congregation (then it turned out, the woman wasn't interested in him, but that's neither here nor there).

    But let us say, hypothetically, that he had made a mistake in the past, but was sincerely repentant. The elders might not reveal WHAT he did, but would they give a hint of a warning? Would the shadow of that sin haunt that brother? I don't know. But it would not be out of the realm of possibility for a self-righteous elder in their overzealousness, to do something that indiscreet. What protects an individual's record from falling into the hands of such a person? It would only take one act of indiscretion to ruin a person's reputation.

    #

    SECOND, when a person is disfellowshipped or publicly reproved, sometimes there follows a local needs part about that sin. Therefore, anybody who doesn't already know what that person did, which might be the majority of the congregation, can simply add two plus two.

    But sometimes the local needs might detail a sin that is NOT related to what that person did, and therefore, people are going to make a mental calculation based on the timing of the announcement versus the timing of the talk.

    For instance, there is a case in my hometown, where a man's wife left him without grounds for separation. Secretly, the wife had been having a romantic relationship with a 17-year-old family friend. After months on loneliness and depression and anger, the man "messed up" as it were, confessed to the elders, and was privately reproved. The wife now was "scripturally free".

    The inappropriate relationship had come to light to the man and the elders, but not the extent of it. She claimed to have called it off and it had not gone 'that far'. But the wife was deceptive, and over the objections of the boy's parents, her relationship secretly continued and deepened.

    At one point, the man not knowing this, even thought his wife might be coming back. Suddenly the elders called and said, "It is apparent your wife is not coming back and is scripturally free to divorce you. Therefore, we are going to change your private reproof to a public reproof so that the congregation can know she is free and that the matter was handled by the elders."

    The man even said, "Well, you have to do what you think is right, but I believe we are getting back together. Ask her and she will tell you." But the elders never told him what they knew of his wife's secret relationship. He was totally in the dark.

    A week after the public reproof, the elders decided to have a marking talk regarding the man's wife. Of course, the marking talk did not reveal the name or gender of the person involved, but they detailed that man's family secrets and why he "messed up". They mostly highlighted the woman's inappropriate relationship and why individuals in the know should 'mark' her. Many were shocked and sickened that such a thing had gone on in their congregation.

    However, to the majority not in the know, to hear that talk one week after the public reproof and the gender of the individual obscured, some undoubtedly would come to believe that the man had the inappropriate relationship, not the wife, after all two plus two…and not everyone comes to the conclusion that you can't be Reproved AND marked, that it's one or the other. So the man having concluded this, left that congregation in shame, never to return there, and basically went into hiding for some time after. How would his reputation ever recover the inevitable gossip that would always follow? Even well meaning people would be on guard against him for something he didn't do.

    So depression deepened and loneliness grew, he got divorced, and under a state of reproof, he succumbed to temptation again. When much time had passed and he got the courage to return to the Kingdom Hall, albeit in another circuit. He wanted to get matters straight. He confessed, and about a year after his 'second' offense, he was disfellowshipped. His ex-wife was eventually disfellowshipped as well, because her boyfriend was indiscreet and her mother overheard him talking on the phone. But that's a different story.

    Ironically, I know, I am revealing this man's private matters, but the damage has already been done, and I feel this illustrates an important point about privacy and announcements and local needs.

    #

    THIRD, secret investigations can violate a person's privacy. I have known of cases where elders decided to investigative a certain brother. They went to his friends and possibly other people in the congregation to see what they knew. These people knew nothing--and afterwards they told them, "Don't tell Brother So-and-so that we questioned you."

    In quantum mechanics, the act of measurement alters the outcome. Similarly, the very act of investigation and the manner of questions actually revealed what they suspected of this brother. Or at the very least, the act makes people aware that there is SOMETHING, and people's imaginations can fill in all sorts of darkness. Being questioned by the elders alone can be a rattling experience.

    The children of the light conduct their business in the light--therefore, true Christians would never have need of such furtive tactics.

    In another case, an investigation was made about a man's grandfather, in this case, a matter of gossip. The man did not want to reveal what his grandfather said to him. So the elders interrogated him, until he was crying and sobbing, and they got the information they wanted. Afterward the elders said, "I thought he was going to have a heart attack!"

    #

    Finally, information leaks out to those outside the elder body. Some elders do a good job keeping secrets. Other times, they let certain things leak out to their wives. I heard of a case where a young gay man went to the elders for help. He had not acted on his desires. He wanted help before he succumbed to them. But an elder leaked the information to his wife. And the wife took it upon herself to warn other parents in the congregation to keep their children away from him. But this man did not like children, he was gay…he liked men. So in short order, this man's secret, the one he wanted so much to keep to himself, was spread far and wide. As a consequence, this young man took his own life.

    #

    A friend of mine used to say something like, "We respect the right of each person to keep their matters private." But unfortunately that is simply NOT the case. I think the organization practices, "What you hear in secret, shout from the rooftops." Regardless, it is a further case of man dominating man to his injury.

  • Balaamsass
    Balaamsass

    Hi Londo,

    As an ex-elder I can testify little in the JW "judicial arrangement" is from the bible. Jesus ransom is perfect. Prayer is private. To believe three guys with no training and possibly no brains, from a publishing company will improve on the ransom will only result in disapointment.

    Sorry about your friend,

  • clarity
    clarity

    Londo111, very true statements about the situation in this makeshift "religion"!

    Window washers and floor scrubbers trying to be something that they are not ... ..... competent!

    Following manmade rules and regulations according to their own whims!

    So right about the suspicious elders, ridiculously questioning 'friends' and family, trying to pry out bits and pieces of incriminating "evidence" about some poor schmuck .... lost a friend to that action. She only heard that they questioned me .... and that was enough to finish our association! {I told nothing}.

    The organization should be trashed!

    clarity

  • Morbidzbaby
    Morbidzbaby

    This was a great read. Very well thought out and presented.

    Under your first section about past sin coming back to haunt you, like in the case of the brother having to provide two elders' testimony to his spirituality...I experienced this first-hand. My ex husband was in a different congregation when we met. I personally didn't WANT the elders snooping around, but somehow they found out where he was from and contacted his elders. Of course, he had some stuff in his past that raised red flags (speaking against some teachings of the org, independent thinking, etc), but I was livid that someone went behind my back to "check him out". In the grand scheme of things, it didn't matter because that's not why we divorced, but it was a severe invasion on not just his privacy, but mine as well.

    As for marking, we had a situation in my home area before I got married. A sister was not "scripturally free" to remarry after her divorce from a very controlling and abusive man, even though another sister came forward and said that this sister's husband had removed his clothing and asked her for oral sex when his wife was outside of the house. He admitted to his WIFE that he had cheated on her...but he refused to tell the elders (he wasn't a JW, but he knew how to play the game). So, without his confession, she was not free. And she wasn't about to engage in espionage to prove that he was sleeping with other women...and he was very good at covering up any relationships he had.

    She ended up meeting a worldly man and marrying him. That was two strikes against her in the eyes of the congregation. The elders couldn't disfellowship her because she insisted she was scripturally free even though her ex husband refused to admit it. He was a worldly guy, of COURSE he was sleeping around now! It was a huge thing in the congregation for awhile. In the end, she wasn't disfellowshipped or reproved...but there was a talk given on marking, with her situation clearly outlined. Everyone in the congregation knew what had happened, so it wasn't hard to postulate who the elders were talking about from the platform.

    She ended up leaving that congregation, which she had been a part of for years. She moved to a different one, but her records followed. Her new husband eventually took to the "Truth", but she ended up losing the person she fell in love with. And when he learned the background of what had happened in the wake of their marriage, he resented her. The cult personality took over and he became tyrannical... She couldn't deal with it anymore, so they separated and as far as I know they still are.

    Privacy isn't something that truly exists in this cult. There is the ILLUSION of privacy. Yes, you can meet with the elders and tell them you are speaking to them in confidence. But they are human. Not all can keep a confidence. Not all will even try. You can guarantee that notes are made. How can you be sure that their children or wives aren't rifling through their things? I knew of a couple, he was en elder...and it seemed that no matter what a person's transgression was...if they were disfellowshipped, somehow the ENTIRE congregation knew what they did. Because this one elder couldn't keep his mouth shut and tell his wife to mind her damn business. Notes are taken in judicial committees. What you say, part of what the elders say, your reactions, how you look, if you "seem repentant"...all goes in writing. And THAT is used to help formulate your letter when you change congregations.

    So yes, your sins are never truly forgiven and forgotten in this cult. The Bible says that "though your sins are scarlet red, I will make them white as snow"...they love to use that verse to illustrate Jehovah's forgiveness....yet they don't show through their actions that this is so. If you commit a sin and are reproved or disfellowshipped, that big scarlet "S" follows you wherever you go within the organization.

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Perhaps former (or current) elders can bespeak to what sorts of documentation is kept?

    My experience was some time ago now so I hesitate to comment . The "Shepherding The Flock Book 2010 " had this to say : Chap 7

    "34. Upon conclusion of the case, the chairman

    should place only necessary notes and documents, a

    detailed summary of the case, and the 5-77 forms

    in a sealed envelope for the congregation's confidential

    file . Elders on the committee should preserve

    nothing outside of this sealed envelope (including

    personal notes). On the outside of the envelope

    should be written the wrongdoer's name, the names

    of those who served on the judicial committee (with

    the chairman indicated), the action taken, and the

    date of the action.

    102 "

    I believe that most of the leaks are the result of careless talk at home to wives who are keen to know, by elders who cannot keep it to themselves.

  • LongHairGal
    LongHairGal

    Very good thread.

    I was always of the opinion that their judicial committees were a farce. I also heard about the inappropriate questions of a sexual nature that are asked. You are absolutely positively right that you can have NO expectation of privacy or confidentiality about anything in the JW religion. At some point, somebody will learn about things said behind closed doors either because some elder blabbed to his wife, etc. OR somebody read his notes. There is simply NO accountability in this religion. Everything is in a grey area of stupidity or gullibility. Back in the day, I heard private things about people in my hall who would have positively died if they knew their secret "sin" was known. Just how the hell did these things become known in the first place? Somebody couldn't keep his trap shut, that's why!

    The JW religion is not like the catholic church and their priestly confessionals. In the church, you CAN have some expectation of privacy. A priest is generally a priest for life and usually only speaks to other priests. There is no wife to blab to. Is it the same with a JW elder?? Hell, no. An elder can blab things to his wife and she can get on the phone. An elder can also step down or be removed. What, then, happens to all the confidential things and tidbits he has heard over the years??? People in the religion are at the mercy of his discretion and that is assuming he has any. This is not very reassuring.

    Sorry for anybody who submitted to this crap. They could have their committee without me, thank you very much.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Participation in a judicial committee is voluntary. As such, our concerns are 'inside baseball' and cannot be appreciated by those outside the organization.

    The danger is joining a high-control group.

    Having your privacy violated is small potatoes compared to seeing your child die, because of refusing lifesaving blood treatment.

    Back to the topic of judicial committes, here's a nickel's worth of free advice: If three men want to ask questions about your genitals, they should all be licensed physicians, on the clock. Otherwise, you need to run like hell and never look back.

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    As an ex-elder I can testify little in the JW "judicial arrangement" is from the bible. Jesus ransom is perfect. Prayer is private. To believe three guys with no training and possibly no brains, from a publishing company will improve on the ransom will only result in disapointment.

    Plus, a good chance that those three guys WILL NOT all still be elders in 2, 5, or 10 years and may not give a rats ass about maintaining your privacy. Most of them love to gossip like little ole ladies at a quilting bee.

    DOC

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    First off, as as already been commented, very little of the WTBTS's Judicial Arrangement is scriptural.

    That being said, if elders decide on "private reproof" they are not supposed to later change it to "public reproof." That would absolutely be a violation of WT policy. Now, THAT being said, the elders often screw up. What a surprise!

    As Balaamsass said, the idea of giving three guys with little-to-no-training and often a corresponding amount of brains the authority to make potentially life-altering decisions about other people's lives is incredibly ill-conceived. To say it is stupid is an understatement.

    Seriously, most of the things that become "judicial matters" should be left the private concern of the individual(s) involved, period. If they do need outside help, it should be from trained, impartial, un-related people such as counselors, therapists, doctors, lawyers, etc ... NOT pool men or janitors, not that there's anything wrong with pool men or janitors ... IF you need your pool, house or office building cleaned.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    He admitted to his WIFE that he had cheated on her...but he refused to tell the elders (he wasn't a JW, but he knew how to play the game).

    Interesting. I was told by the elders that if my unbelieving husband confessed only to me, that was enough. The only time the elders needed a confession or 2 witnesses was if he was a JW. I believe I read that in a WT also. The article said that in the case of an unbelieving mate, it was between the believer's conscience and Jehovah. So much for consistency.

    NC

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit