Remaining in Association with Jehovah's W...

by Marvin Shilmer 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Remaining in Association with Jehovah’s Witnesses

    An active baptized member of Jehovah’s Witnesses finds significant errors taught in the central publication of the religion, The Watchtower journal. The error is taught with frequency in private and public settings arranged by the religion. The significance reaches to the point that, in some circumstances, premature death could result from abiding by the error. What conscientious options are available to this member? Must they publicly denounce the error (or errors) and formally withdraw themselves from the religion in order to maintain their personal dignity and conscience? Or, can they privately denounce the error or errors and informally withdraw themselves from the religion, yet still maintain their personal dignity and conscience? Or, is it possible to remain a member and retain the same dignity and conscience? This writer believes the individual’s conscience and personal dignity—their honor—can be retained in either setting, but that the third choice has unique honor.

    Choice One

    In the first instance (formal withdrawal—disassociation—and repudiation of error) an individual has made a choice based upon a conscientious choice to abide by a personal finding of what is right. No one could denounce them for following their conscience. However, in the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the individual will find themselves ridiculed by remaining members of the religion. In essence their former associates will conclude the ex-member has made a very bad and unwise decision, because they feel there is no error of such significance to justify formal withdrawal from the religion. Nevertheless, the person has made a choice in good conscience, they have acted honorably.

    Choice Two

    In the second instance (informal withdrawal—fading away—and privately repudiating the error) an individual might not be taking a public stance of defending their choice, but they may not be able to without hurting others more severely than it may hurt them to remain effectively silent. In this case an individual has acted selflessly by sacrificing their desire to publicly repudiate error for the sake of others who would be hurt and could not be saved in the process for a variety of reasons. Unless a person is intimately aware of all the facts, including the perceptions of the member involved, there can be no charge of dishonor because the possibility remains that a good conscientious choice has been made. As before, former associates will conclude the ex-member has made a very bad and unwise decision, because they feel there is no error of such significance to justify formal withdrawal from the religion. But, again, this person has made a choice in good conscience, they have acted honorably.

    Choice Three

    In the third instance (remaining a member) the individual is not taking a public stance of repudiating the error, but neither are they removing themselves from membership, formally or informally. Even in this case it is possible the person is acting honorably. How so? The individual may simply be trying to do all possible to root out the error by whatever means is otherwise available and at the same time cause as little emotional, mental and spiritual upheaval as possible. This person believes emotional and mental stability are essential to happiness and that meaningful spiritual aspiration is essential for both. On one hand they realize an erroneous teaching is death dealing in certain circumstances, but they believe they can make more gains on overcoming this error by working from within and helping to change the flaw, and at the same time not cause the meaningful spiritual aspiration of others to be overcome to the point of causing them to effectively experience a living death that could last for many, many years. Again, this person has made a choice in good conscience, they have acted honorably.

    Whichever of the three choices a member makes, they will find themselves ridiculed by persons inside or outside the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, except for the one who chooses the latter (remaining a member). Experience shows that a person who recognizes the error but remains a Jehovah’s Witness will find themselves ridiculed from persons inside and outside the religion. Why is this?

    Some persons outside the religion will feel you are a coward for not standing up denouncing the error publicly. These ridiculers are also likely to feel by virtue of continued membership you are helping to perpetuate the error. On top of calling you a coward, these will also repudiate you as a hypocrite. On the other side of the aisle some persons inside the religion will feel you are a hypocrite for continuing a membership in something you are not in full agreement with. These ridiculers will denounce you as a spying traitor in that you are not in full agreement but remain privy to inside information anyway. This situation may be the worst of all because persons both sides make you the object of ridicule.

    In the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses, any one of the three choices above will be hard ones. It is commendable that intelligent people recognize the potential honor in each case and encourage accordingly. This is an act of neighborliness that, in my opinion, reflects the historical record of Jesus who was willing to build up a person rather than tear them down. This Jesus recognized when people were acting in good conscience and commended them accordingly. Such a course has the practical value of always rewarding conscientious choices, which encourages thoughtfulness, and that is something that no one can intelligently criticize.

    What brings on these comments? I am one who has chosen the third option mentioned above. There are many others like me who I know personally, and we have all experienced that described above. Thankfully I can report that discouragement has come only from what I will respectfully call idiots, on both sides. That is, whenever a thoughtful person on either side realized the good conscientious choice, they responded encouragingly. Of course, idiots are not thoughtful and they act accordingly. Quite a few of my friends have succumbed to vicious emotional assaults from idiots on both sides, and their lives are the worse as a result. Of course, they knew the stakes of making the choice they made, so they are not complaining. But no one involved in the hurting has gained anything, except ruining part (or all) of someone’s life, someone who was acting unselfishly and in good conscience at all times. In my book these people are acting in ways that the Bible condemns, and society too for that matter.

    Fallacy

    In some cases people will actually assert a fallacious bifurcation by contending that honor requires a member must either agree in full with teachings of The Watchtower or formally leave and publicly repudiate the supposed error. These persons are arguing a black and white when other, honorable, options are available, and that is what makes it a fallacy. One reason I believe people assert this false bifurcation results from the sentiment “Traitors are hated by both sides.” The reason this ideology fails in the case of the third choice is this: it is the only choice where a person is definitely not a traitor in context with this discussion. How is that?

    In the first choice the individual has formally withdrawn themselves; they are now traitors in the eyes of their former allegiance. In the second choice the individual has still withdrawn, just quietly; however ideologically they are still viewed as traitors because they have withdrawn. If we apply an ideology that “a traitor is hated by both sides,” then both these cases should experience ridicule from both sides, but experience shows they don’t.

    The third choice is the only one where the individual has not withdrawn. In the scenario I speak of, they have not removed themselves from membership but instead have made a choice to stand and fight for gains as best the system will allow it. This is not an easy fight. Those who have experienced it know the fight is extremely demanding and, in the end, in most cases the person ends up being caste out of the religion because of thoughtless persons who do not comprehend the good fight, or else they are just plain worn out to a point where they can no longer keep up the fight. In this case they still have not withdrawn. Rather, it can be said they have fought the fine fight to the finish. These are the only ones who cannot be deemed traitors by virtue of withdrawing membership. For whatever reason, they saw some redeeming feature or features worth fighting to salvage, and they acted accordingly. Who of us does not have significant disagreement with an institution that we would also fight to preserve its good features?

    The Bible and society as a whole has a long list of persons who made “Choice Three.” To name a few historical persons of the Bible: Elijah, Jeremiah, and Paul.

    The option of remaining a member in good conscience exists and therefore the bifurcation of “Stay and accept all!” or, “Leave and publicly reject!” is a false black and white fallacy. Of course, just how one balances their knowledge of error with continued membership is crucial to maintaining a good conscience, but in this author’s mind it is possible and should not be dismissed as undoable. It is possible that I am just trying to justify my own choice. Then again none of us can read another person’s mind to know if they are acting as best they possibly can to do good, and who could expect more than a person’s best. In the end maybe the struggle of trying to understand why another person thinks they are doing good is a key element in spiritual aspiration for each one of us. In that case the thoughtful ones are far ahead. From what I can gather, the historical Jesus was just such a man. Perhaps this is why today he yet has so many claiming discipleship.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • waiting
    waiting

    Howdy Marvin,

    Lee Elder said I could be friendly and use *howdy* instead of the formal *hello*. Hope this holds true for you too?

    Thankfully I can report that discouragement has come only from what I will respectfully call idiots, on both sides. That is, whenever a thoughtful person on either side realized the good conscientious choice, they responded encouragingly. Of course, idiots are not thoughtful and they act accordingly. Quite a few of my friends have succumbed to vicious emotional assaults from idiots on both sides, and their lives are the worse as a result.
    I'm sorry for the hurt put upon you and your friends by "idiots" on both sides of the argument - and there are idiots, to be sure - some of them quite intelligent and articulate in other ways.
    It is commendable that intelligent people recognize the potential honor in each case and encourage accordingly. This is an act of neighborliness that, in my opinion, reflects the historical record of Jesus who was willing to build up a person rather than tear them down. This Jesus recognized when people were acting in good conscience and commended them accordingly.
    Man.....you sound like a jw there! But encouragement and commendation for any effort - even the effort to withhold pain should be acknowledged, imho. An effort to try and stop pain should be twice as priceless, eh?
    Then again none of us can read another person’s mind to know if they are acting as best they possibly can to do good, and who could expect more than a person’s best. In the end maybe the struggle of trying to understand why another person thinks they are doing good is a key element in spiritual aspiration for each one of us.
    And now, you sound like a thoughtful person. Thank you - for this post and for all the work you and your commrades accomplish for the freedom of Jehovah's Witnesses.
    waiting
  • lurk
    lurk

    ive been think alot about what you wrote what will i do in the event i except WTS is wrong in some ways .
    i remeber what jesus said of an old lady that put money in the collection box(or what ever its called) in the temple.jesus showed that the pitance she gave was worth more that all the money that the rich people put in, why? cause she gave out of her want in other words she couldnt afford to give it but she loved jehovah so she gave (out of her heart in away).
    importantly the religion at that time was on its way out and was not apporved of by god any more, yet the womans tithing
    or money gift was seen as a lovely thing in jesus eyes, wat she gave wasnt worthless cause the priests etc had sttrayed far away from god, jesus still appreicted it.

  • waiting
    waiting

    hi lurk,

    importantly the religion at that time was on its way out and was not apporved of by god any more, yet the womans tithing
    or money gift was seen as a lovely thing in jesus eyes,
    That would be one way to place the importance of Jesus' parable. But I was always taught by the jw's and still agree - that the important thing was - the woman was honest & humble, which was completely opposite of the pharisees.

    The woman gave her best to God in her humble way. That was what Jesus was trying to show - not that she was remaining faithful to a dying religious system.

    waiting

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    If it's just about being a JW for whatever reason, there are few 'idiots' on thos board regarding that.

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE TELL ME this is not a revisitation of the elders and culpability issue....huff....pufff..HUFF>>>PUFF>>>>

    In 1975 a crack team of publishers was sentenced to death by a judicial commiteee. They promptly escaped from the cult and now live life on the run. If you have a problem ... and if you can find them ... maybe you can contact the A--postate Team"

  • Perry
    Perry

    Marvin,

    I could almost feel the struggle in your post and greatly enjoyed you sharing your thoughts on your crisis of conscience.

    The error is taught with frequency in private and public settings arranged by the religion. The significance reaches to the point that, in some circumstances, premature death could result from abiding by the error.
    Ask yourself this question: Would I act any differently if I was talking about a college as opposed to a religion? Both are institutions of knowledge and ideologies. The only difference IMO are the stakes. Just because the stakes have been raised should you act differently?

    If a university observed policies that resulted in the "premature deaths" of students what would you do? Certainly virtue may even demand that you stay and assist your classmates to change the policies and help save lives. But what if the administration was simply a totalitarian regime that met all disagreement with either forced recanting (lying) or expulsion? What chance of reform would there actually be? What does history teach us about negotiating with terroristic authority?

    Of course, if your staying was part of a well thought plan to help other classmates escape the danger, that is an entirely different story. However, if self deception is employed, imagining a result with no chance of success, then how can that possibly resemble anything having to do with honor?

    Certainly many Germans deceived themselves during WW II and the cry from some officers, "I was only following orders" that resulted in the "premature deaths" of innocent people didn't hold up in a court of law. During that dark time in history, in retrospect many people suffered intense guilt and a loss of dignity for not doing something. Though admittedly the options were few.

    Just because religions are constitutionally exempt from the same intensity of prosecution that may be applied to individuals, institutions, and governments, does that releive a moral obligation to love your neighbor as yourself, especially if claiming a Christian alligiance? How can a person sleep well and look at themself in the mirror knowing that at that very moment your neighbor and spiritual kin may be needlessly dying due to ignorance and domination while you cling to credulity?

    I make no personal judgements here. You are the one with the knowledge of your inner motivations. My thoughts above are simply my opinions.

    Good luck with your current conscience crisis. And, make no mistake about it, it is also a crisis of honor, virtue and dignity as well. It may, in all liklihood be one of the greatest tests of your character you will ever face.

  • JT
    JT

    MARVIN SAYS:

    , but they believe they can make more gains on overcoming this error by working from within and helping to change the flaw,
    -------------------------
    Again, this person has made a choice in good conscience, they have acted honorably.

    #########

    While i will be the first to say each person needs to decide what is best for himself and the first 2 choices are what many choose to do

    but the 3rd choice is very interesting- i don't believe it is really possible

    you state:

    "but they believe they can make more gains on overcoming this error by working from within and helping to change the flaw"

    first off you need to define:

    "WHAT IS THE FLAW IN THE ORG?"

    the flaw in the org is a very simple one that will not change and if it does then the org will cease to be:

    the flaw in the org is their claim that WE SPEAK FOR GOD

    from that claim has issued forth all kinds of Wacky and Goofy teachings, policies,procedures,rules and so forth-

    one of the things that you will realize-- be it this week or next , but in time you will-- that as ray put it the Entire Super Structure upon with WT sits is flawed

    and that is the bottom line

    many of us started out thinking that we could be REFORMERS but with the passing of time it became very clear that one has to ask:

    REFORM WT INTO WHAT? Since it has NEVER BEEN GOD'S MOUTHPC OR CHANNEL are you saying that your effors will result in the org becoming the channel of God here on the earth AS IT CLAIMS IT ALREADY IS

    notice this statment here FROM the wt --it shows the very reason why your 3rd choice is USELESS

    if you decide to "Remain in assocaiton with JW" you can't even have a different thought in YOUR HEAD that differs from the FDS

    then how then can there be change - when the very org has told you and millions of others that if you have a different thought IN YOUR HEAD than what we say you should YOU DON'T LOVE GOD

    your efforts are alreay shot down- this is why so many bro after realizing that wt can't be REFORMED then decided on how they would leave be it formal or informal

    but to think that you can do it in some "HONABLE WAY" you are kidding yourself

    read AMAZING STORY THERE IS NO HONABLE WAY TO LEAVE WT

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=7390&site=3#259682

    Harboring private thoughts forbidden
    August 1, 2001 Watchtower. The second study
    article is entitled How to Make Your
    Advancement Manifest.

    And just how is that? Well, after quoting Ephesians 4:11-14, here’s what paragraphs 8 and 9 advise:
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.”

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    I'd forgotten how much that article upset me, JT untill you reminded me. I was present for that Watchtower study, as well as the 'disfellowship and shun children but fully support the innocent parents' study. I was ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY ILL for at least a week sitting through those studies.

    I really believe no humane informed person could stay a Jehovah's Witness for any length of time without committing suicide, or being hospitalized, it's just too physically sickening. Especially the two issues above, and the battered women and the pedophile...I mean---you wowuld be vomiting all ovewr the place.

    In 1975 a crack team of publishers was sentenced to death by a judicial commiteee. They promptly escaped from the cult and now live life on the run. If you have a problem ... and if you can find them ... maybe you can contact the A--postate Team"

  • Perry
    Perry

    JT wrote:

    "WHAT IS THE FLAW IN THE ORG?"

    the flaw in the org is a very simple one that will not change and if it does then the org will cease to be:

    the flaw in the org is their claim that WE SPEAK FOR GOD


    Your above statement hit me right between the eyes. The entire purpose of the WBTS is to convince people that it is God's Mouthpiece.

    How did I miss that stark simplicity in the past? I always viewed it as a religious institution used to get to know God and Christ. That is not what it is about at all.

    REFORM WT INTO WHAT? Since it has NEVER BEEN GOD'S MOUTHPC OR CHANNEL are you saying that your effors will result in the org becoming the channel of God here on the earth AS IT CLAIMS IT ALREADY IS
    You are so right JT. Even if the WBTS changes policies so that people won't have to die, it still will be all about equating itself with God. Under that pretense, it will always administer domination in one form or another.
  • JT
    JT

    dungbetle says:

    I was ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY ILL for at least a week sitting through those studies.

    ########

    i can beleive it- that is one of the most powerful quotes in recent years i have ever seen

    THEY WANT TO CONTROL EVEN YOUR VERY OWN PRIVATE THOUGHTS

    and we know how that works on the ground floor

    if a jw has different thoughts on a matter than the society they will kick into GUILT MODE IN HIGH GEAR
    why do i feel and think different than jah mouthpc the fds and they will begin to feel THE PROBLEM IS THEM when in fact their common sense is telling them that something is wrong but they must suppress that feeling and instead accept that they are IMMATURE and that is the reason why they see differently from the society on an issue

    the wt are experts at whipping up guilt and fear and it works too

    --------------------
    I really believe no humane informed person could stay a Jehovah's Witness for any length of time without committing suicide, or being hospitalized, it's just too physically sickening. Especially the two issues above, and the battered women and the pedophile...I mean---you wowuld be vomiting all ovewr the place.
    -------

    point well taken and that is why when i read of a poster saying
    I WILL STAY AND TRY TO HELP OUT
    it tells me that at THIS POINT the person is not fully aware of how the Org actually works

    they are under the illusion that there is SOMETHING THEY CAN DO

    while the thought is noble the reality is they are fighting a losing battle

    the Indoctrination machine that wt has in place is too powerful

    5 meetings tons of talks and publicaitons --daily text and esp the wt comments on that bible text with thier own slant on the matter

    is just too powerful

    all you can do is get out of the way of the wt train and help anyone else who wants to get off THERE WILL BE NO MASS EXODUS

    and the reason is simple religion plays a major role in the lives of billions and it GIVE HOPE whether it's real or not is not even the issue, but it gives HOPE to an otherwise very HOPELESS WORLD for so many folks

    i will be the very first to admit WT SELLS A DAMN GOOD PRODUCT(good health, lots of BBQ Ribs and Fried chicken_ damn i knew as a black man there was another reason i no longer wanted to be in the NEW SYSTEM) SMILE------BUT THEY JUST CAN'T SEEM TO EVER DELIVER IT
    SINCE EVERYONE has WEEK 53 on thier Beach Front Property Timeshare

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