Remaining in Association with Jehovah's W...

by Marvin Shilmer 30 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ozziepost

  JT says it all as far as I'm concerned, when he says:

  the flaw in the org is a very simple one that will not change and if it does then the org will cease to be:

  the flaw in the org is their claim that WE SPEAK FOR GOD

  from that claim has issued forth all kinds of Wacky and Goofy teachings, policies,procedures,rules and so forth-

  one of the things that you will realize-- be it this week or next , but in time you will-- that as ray put it the Entire Super Structure upon with WT sits is flawed

  and that is the bottom line

  many of us started out thinking that we could be REFORMERS but with the passing of time it became very clear that one has to ask:

  REFORM WT INTO WHAT? Since it has NEVER BEEN GOD'S MOUTHPC OR CHANNEL are you saying that your effors will result in the org becoming the channel of God here on the earth AS IT CLAIMS IT ALREADY IS

  Absolutely correct IMHO. We were only discussing this at "the bbq" yesterday. How can you reform something that was never right in its beginnings? It's NEVER been right. Good grief, CT Russell based some of his writings on pyramidology i.e. spiritism. He lived a bizarre married life, never having consummated his own marriage to Maria (in his own words). Why would you want to go back to that, for that is what reformation entails. Or do the reformers want to go back to the era of Joe Ratherflawed? Even worse than Russell, that man was a megalomaniac who wrote in the WT he knew better than Christ. This blasphemous individual was the founder of modern-day JWs. Reform to that?!!!

  The truth is, the WTS has nothing to offer except more of the same.

  In the words often quoted by the WTS: "Get out of her my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins".

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  messenger

  Marvin,

  Regarding your crisis of honor, virtue and dignity;

  "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit"
• 

  Sam Beli

  While I personally agree with JT’s points and those who have commented following his post, and while I personally have abandoned the WT organization, I believe that we must let each one determine his own path.

  Freedom is all about allowing each one to determine his/her own choice. If we condemn those who choose a different path, how are we much better than the WT who, as we all know, condemns all that choose a path different than the one they command we follow?

  Freedom folks. It is all about freedom.

  Sam Beli

  I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted. Solomon
• 

  ozziepost

  Sam,

  Marvin was asking for comments on his 3 scenarios and, from I what I see, he's received a selection of honest opinions. Giving an opinion is not the same as criticising or trying to deny another's freedom. Rather, each one has the freedom to make up his/her own mind AND TO EXPRESS IT.

  If my comments are interpreted as criticism, I apologise. It certainly was not intended. However, my comments reflect my own conscientiously held beliefs and opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  outnfree

  Sam,

  I've seen no criticism here, either. Marvin will do what Marvin feels Marvin should do, and that's as it should be.

  For myself, I had that same epiphany that JT refers to. Once I figured out that there was NOTHING SPECIAL AT ALL about those who claimed to have a direct line to God, I needed to leave.

  Then, when I realized I could find other Christians who lived lives more loving and upright than many JW's at several area churches, I realized how much I had believed the LIE that other religions were somehow less 'pure' than the Witnesses'.

  THEN, when I realized that those same people ALSO had their own specific agendas on HOW we SHOULD worship, I distanced myself from organized religion.

  I am now a Deist (I think -- ) living my life much the same as I did while a Witness. Except now I don't feel guilty for using my time or spending my joy on family, charity, and fun.

  The WATCHTOWER SOCIETY (not most individual JWs) is corrupt, deceitful, and stingy. It has evil policies in place to protect and promote its whitewashed image, but it is a nest of deadly vipers.
  That doesn't stop me wanting to see reform of some of those nasty policies, in order to help those still trapped within or with loved ones suffering. But I'll do it from OUTSIDE, because that was MY choice.

  I am, after all, now

  outnfree

  It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  All the comments are appreciated. Since I don't want to be misunderstood in the discussion I see a need to offer a few additional comments.

  Unless anyone can show me otherwise, I don't see the need to criticize people for making a personal conscientious choice to leave association with Jehovah's Witnesses formally or informally, or to remain in association to do what they feel they can to help. As far as I can tell, the cowards are persons who see the error and do nothing about it, or refuse to look objectively in order to see a proposed error. These are the ones who act discordantly with decency and good conscience. They are defiled ones by virtue of being dishonest with themselves.

  As for the "we speak for God" underpinning, in the final analysis this underpinning asserts one thing. It asserts, "We are right in our beliefs and if you know what's good for you, you will listen and adopt those beliefs." The assertion is common across practically all social groups, which groups utilize all manner of authority to press the contention. The potential danger of this underpinning stems from how it is applied, not from the belief itself. After all, most of us think we are right and act accordingly. Enlightened persons are those who act with conviction but nurture a lifelong habit of objective review and a willingness to spark the fire of open discussion of what they feel are the more important beliefs.

  In the case of the Watchtower Society, it depends on a biblical authority for the "We are right…" claim. By and large individuals making up Jehovah's Witnesses have accepted this contention because they recognize a biblical authority similar to that espoused by the Society. Naturally many people disagree with this conclusion, but that too is common. Every one of us reject claims made by other groups who effectively offer different versions of the same " We are right…" claim, or we would if we knew of it or them. As for me, well let's just say I accept my own version of the "speaking for God" concept, but not one in complete harmony with the Society's contentions. I do accept the Bible as God's words to mankind (a subject for another discussion) but do not accept that my biblical beliefs should be tied unwaveringly to teachings of the Society, doing so would make me an everyday follower of men. Therefore, my version of the "speak for God" concept has me believing a teaching is biblical only if it can be successfully argued true in the light of day by sound reasoning based on the Bible. Among Jehovah's Witnesses I am not alone in this version of the "We are right…" concept. On the face of things every Witness would agree with this version. But when it gets to a discussion of details many Witnesses become uncomfortable trying to make sense of certain teachings or aspects of teachings, most often to the point of ending or refusing the discussion. Thus in the final analysis these Witnesses end up practicing a version of the "We are right…" concept that effectively asserts "We believe the Bible says what the Society tells us it says."

  Each person must decide how he or she wants to deal with this problem, one that is found all around us in varying disguises. In my case, there is no illusion of overcoming the problem as a whole. Indeed that would mean changing society as a whole too, and no one of us can accomplish that. At best all we can do is uncover one problematic rock at the time and then work to correct it. So, in my comments titled Remaining in Association with Jehovah’s Witnesses, the "Third Choice" is not about an activist trying to overcome every problem. Rather it intends to describe a person who seeks to improve what they can in one segment of society, Jehovah's Witnesses. The person has no illusions of forming an existing religion built around their personal beliefs of what is good and right. Instead they are content to do what all of us should be doing to the degree possible--identifying erroneous teachings or aspects of teachings in our chosen circles for the sake of correcting them to a point where they are not dangerous anymore.

  Finally, my initial comments did not intend to represent any personal crisis of honor, but only to offer a perspective that we all should keep in mind. A perspective that reminds us that Choice One, Two and Three can be and often are made honorably by honorable persons, and each one should sleep well at night as long as they know they have done their best.
• 

  waiting

  Very good comments from varying perspectives. It never occurred to me that I was part of any movement to destroy the WTBTS. I don't think we can - but we can make them change towards mainstreaming, losing the quasi-cult status.

  As has been mentioned - hasten the changing of the blood issue, bring publicity to it, make the WTBTS identify changes in understandable writing so the local jw's will be able to understand it. Imho, it will happen - if they're forced.

  Enough people will learn about df'ing & da'ing & shunning. It will change, imho. The trick is to hasten its demise. It's happening, people miss their families, their children. A woman from Africa used to visit here & said that shunning was not actually practiced by the locals there - they will not give up their families. She suggested that this was a European/American oddity in general.

  "We are God's people." Yeah, and so are the Jews, the Muslims, the Catholics.......on and on and on. Nothing new - and someone else will take on the title tomorrow.

  These things don't happen just out of bombing Bethel. They happen in the congregations where people live - the foot soldiers. Get them to rebel and the flatulant generals will pay attention....sooner or later. The trick is getting them to pay attention sooner.

  And when these things change - hopefully, it will change worldwide. Otherwise, the nations just learning jw's brand will have to go through the blood deaths, etc., all over again.

  As for people's decisions to stay with their families, dump their families, walk away quietly or screaming.......these are personal decisions - sometimes not based on choice, but on circumstances. If one feels that they can help generate change from within - great. It may hasten the saving of some lives, as with the ever-changing blood doctrine.

  Imho, the WTBTS will be around long after we've all died of old age. Not because they are "God's channel" - but because they're accumulating better business managers. But I bet they'll be mainstream by then, and perhaps stagnant in size.

  waiting

  ps: my nephew is starting college in the fall - 3rd child in that family. Ten years ago, it wasn't even an option for the oldest son.
  Hardcore elder & pioneer wife. Some things are changing -
• 

  Sam Beli

  bttt

  Sam Beli

  I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted. Solomon
• 

  Farkel

  Marvin,

  As you should know, I do and will respect you for your decision.

  The WTS has only made significant change when they are FORCED to do it. Dramatic loss of members, loss of revenues, and lawsuits or threats of lawsuits are what has caused them to effect change in the past. I'm not aware of ANY major changes being made due to those who take "choice three." They are beyond reason anymore and need a major waking-up call. I'm afraid you are making a choice that you will regret. A good and decent man like yourself will HAVE to be a hypocrite if you continue in the organization. If you will not let yourself be a hypocrite, they will "out" you and get rid of you anyway.

  I just hope that in twenty years you won't still be living in hope that you can still help change them, but if you stay, that is a distinct possibility and you will have given up so much for a religion whose leaders could not care less about you.

  Farkel

  "I didn't mean what I meant."
• 

  lurk

  waiting , suppsoe ti is differant, jesus would no that the jewish system was genuinly set up by god and so her keeping
  the laws were valid between her and god...well thats how it seems now to me *shrug*

  and the battered women and the pedophile...I mean---you wowuld be vomiting all ovewr the place.

  dungbeetle im interested to read about that..can you tell me where i is?