Remaining in Association with Jehovah's W... (page 2)

JT

Perry says

Even if the WBTS changes policies so that people won't have to die, it still will be all about equating itself with God. Under that pretense, it will always administer domination in one form or another.
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excellent point and while i think the effort of many here to change wt policy on blood and child abuse is great to me i look at the bottom line

if the wt changed the 2 issues today well over 6million folks would say:

"IT WAS FOOD AT THE PROPER TIME AND WE WAITED-- unlike you running ahead damn APOSTATES"

GREAT post perry

siegswife

Well said, JT. You hit the nail square on the head.

Sam Beli

It is seems obvious that Marvin Shilmer is highly placed in the WT organization. Who are we to say that from his position he can not eventually have a positive effect on the most harmful of JW doctrines/policies. These, in his mind, are likely to include the blood policy and shunning practices.

While it is true that he probably can not see his way clear to modify the “We Speak For God” policy, if he could get the murderous blood policy abolished and the shunning practices modified that would be a major accomplishment and would lessen the most harmful aspects of the JW religion.

Maybe that would be worth it. He has made his decision and I am very willing to take a wait and see approach with respect to him (I have no authority to judge him anyway). Had I personally waited, I’d be dead by now (blood saved my life).

Sam Beli

It should also be mentioned that Marvin Shilmer made excellent contributions to the British Journal of Medical Ethics “Letters to the Editor” section where comments were received on Dr Muramoto’s article.

That thread can be read here: http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/322/7277/37

Seems to me that he has put his pen where his mouth is.

Lee Elder

Thank you for a well thought out, well-written post. AJWRB would consider publishing such an article. This is an incredibly complex subject and I believe that there are other some other factors that also have an important bearing on the personal decision each must make. I had a very interesting discussion of this subject with Ray Franz a couple of years ago. He related the experience of an elder who preferred option one. The problem was that the man's entire family - children and grandchildren - were all JWs. The elder's wife told him that she would kill herself if he disassociated himself and it was his judgement that this was no idle threat. Who would want to be responsible for suggesting a course of action that led directly to the death of someone else? The only reasonable course, in my view, is to reserve judgement and allow individuals to make the choice that seems best for them and their families.

Lee

JT

Who are we to say that from his position he can not eventually have a positive effect on the most harmful of JW doctrines/policies. These, in his mind, are likely to include the blood policy and shunning practices.
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While I agree that if he is able to change THINGS great ,but consider this

one life loss is too much, but there are 6mill jw

how many of them would be Affected by any new change in blood

in your typical congo how many folks do you know are faced with the blood issue out of 135 pub.

how many are affected by shunning out of 135 pub-

now-- how many of them give up college, make no plans for the future, turn down promotions on their job - young folks who are forced to live double lives all because they want to play a pickup game of hoop with some of the kids from school-

how may single women grow old and never marry or are forced to marry Leroy in the hall and be treated like Sh!t, they suffer from not being free to fall in love with a man who will love them and care for them - provide for them-

how many couples like my wife and i are almost 40 with no kids WAITING ON THE NEW SYSTEM-

AND THE LIST goes on and on- THERe are rules in place that may not take ones Immidiate life per- say, but after 20-50 yrs of selling useless books the effect in my view is all the same

ONES VERY LIFE AND QUALITY OF LIFE HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY-

i think back at all the young kids who were my age in 1981 who could have went on to be Dr. Lawyer, dentist, scientist and others who could have discovered the cure to cancer- yet they wasted their lives in WT or they left and the guilt of not ding gods will so effected them that they never made and good decision after leaving wt years later

i know of not one young person who left the org that went on to do something wth thier life- instead they no longer had anyone to tell them what they could and could not do and so instead of pursueing the postive they pursued the negative

drugs, pregnant, low paying jobs, just nothing of any real substance with their life

so while I will be the first to admit that the blood issue is goofy

it is the entire struture that wt has that has slowly destroyed millions of lives

but as i stated --i have yet to see anyone who after TRYING TO STAY AND CHANGE THINGS DOES NOT after awhile realize that

IT'S TIME TO GO

So I commend him for what he is doing

but in my exp most bro who try--- realize that they are BUCKING A SYSTEM THAT is setup for the purpose of Survival

and the org will not let ANYONE threaten that survival

THEY WILL CUT YOUR LEGS OFF FIRST

i was merely trying to save him some time-

JUST MY 2

ARoarer

"A House divided against itself cannot stand"

dungbeetle

WHAT!!!!! Someone threatens to kill themselve, you get them into treatment for crying out loud. That man would not be reseponsible for his wife killing herself, because only a very very sick person would kill themselves because her husband wants to change religions IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That man had bad advice. And that doesn't even go to the issue of whether he remains an eld----never mind.

I think we all are doing the most important thing we can do...cutting off the supply of fresh converts.

And as far as getting the blood policy changed, and the shunning policy--well..if there is no watchtower, theere will be no policeis.

THAT WHICH IS CROOKED CANNOT BE MADE STRAIGHT. A child can understand this.

The bottom line is that you have to shun rape and molestation survivors and children to stay in the org for any length of time, or you gonna be busted. You can't stay a Witness for any length of time, you will get caught. The alternative is to move from congo to congo. Another alternative is to go on meds because that's how bad it is to sit through this crap. Believe me, I know. Hope these people have good medical insurance. If they're half a caring individual, they're going to need it.

Oh well, I'll be on JW.COM shit list for this for the next six months AGAIN.

In 1975 a crack team of publishers was sentenced to death by a judicial commiteee. They promptly escaped from the cult and now live life on the run. If you have a problem ... and if you can find them ... maybe you can contact the A--postate Team"

Edited..on the other hand, to be fair, there are way too many stories of people who felt they left the org or made changes too fast and if they could do it over, they would do it differnetly. If that's the sort of thing you are referring to, Lee Elder, I agree with you totally.

Perry

JT, Plato said that the unexamined life is not worth living.

From a sociological perspective, people generally don't know, what they do not know. And, if Plato is correct then the "death" toll is far greater than those affected by blood and shunning. What the Society has actually stolen is people's ability to reach for a better quality of life.

Like you said, after leaving most simply run the program: since I don't go to meetings I must fall into immorality, drugs, etc.; because I 've been taught that is what worldly people do.

Most on this board do not truly realize that practically ANY unethical behavior that they now engage in was pre-programmed by the society. I could draw on many sociological models to illustrate this point, but the reality is, many are not free at all to realize their potential.

I am in full agreement with you that the real toll cannot be measured in loss of life, but rather in loss of quality of life.

jesussaves

The last meeting I attended the elder that said the prayer made the statement 'Help us to guard against independent thinking'. I don't feel as a person that still believes in God and still wants to serve him, that I had any other option but to leave. Now I chose to fade away because my entire family are JWs. I don't think that option one is ever necessary unless its initiated by the cong. The only way to help our loved ones and friends still in the borg is to maintain a dialogue, but how can one be taken seriously if they are still active participants? If it were me, I would think that a person still in the borg could not be too serious about their convictions if they're still a member.

Remaining in Association with Jehovah's W...

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