by Terry 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Sab-
in my community we have over 7000 volunteers in Surfrider Foundation who go out every month to clean the Beaches and Bays along our Coast. The largest Food Bank and shelter in our community just served its 20,000,000th meal over Thanksgiving.
People are nice, and generous, something I found out just like many other xJWs have who had a negative image of 'worldy people' from the Wt..
WOW, when I came out of the cult and gave the world a chance, I found unbelievable generosity and caring. My life was opened up to so many charities and causes that people throw themselves into freely and willingly. For the first time in history, we actually care about oppressed people outside our borders. It's true, selfish people and policies exists, but the world has become much smaller. We know instantly when a region has suffered something horrible---and you know what---there we are.
If you look for the bad, you WILL find it. If you look for the good and the unselfish, it is abundant.
NC
$100.00 says the earth will keep on long after we're gone. If all goes well I'll be around into my 90s, another 30 years at least, any of you Burned earth-christians want to take up the bet.
I'd wager 100 times that that it will be here at LEAST 1,000 years after the "date and hour" that my Lord returns, dear designs (peace to you!). Since he hasn't returned yet, that gives us, well, more than 1,000 years to start. John knew that and wrote of it:
" The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. ... Then they gathered the kings togethertothe place that in Hebrew is called [Armageddon]." Revelation 16:12-14, 16
"... I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nationsin the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — andto gather them for battle."
Only one such battle, dear one... and it occurs at least 1,000 years AFTER Christ's rule with his brothers... which has not started... starts. And it occurs at the "place" called "Har-Mageddon... some time after the END (which could be CENTURIES!) of that 1,000 years.
Just a heads-up, luv, and... again... peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA, who knows the earth will NOT be burned up... but rather, unfortunately, some of those IN it (as well as some of those who frequent the vicinity of it, as well as some who are... let's just say "under" it) will be. The earth, however, will never be made to totter...
TERRY, GOOD UNDERSTANDING, BUT FOCUS!!
You said:
Every lunatic from then on has had a crack at cherry-picking scriptures and pointed to "Signs" in the world that support their own private interpretation.
The problem is that the PREMISE IS WRONG!
The so-called "signs" of his 2nd Coming are indistinguishable from every decade from mankind's beginning!
There have always been wars, rumors of wars, lawlessness, etc. etc., earthquakes, etc. etc.
But, for people who feel THEIRS must be END TIMES, they just find an explanation that "makes sense" to their little pea brains and off they go!!
This is where CHRONOLOGY COMES IN!! I agree. You can find compatible eents to match the signs to many various periods in time, but the CHRONOLOGY limits you to 1914-related eventds!
That is, the first sign is "nation vs nation, kingdom vs kingdom" which is a world war and thus WWI! That's the first sign. But the CHRONOLOGY dates the second coming near the end of a generation that begins wkith that first sign, thus a generation of 80 years from 1914-1994. The fulfillment of that was the seccond comikng occurring secretly,, "like a thief in the night to those awake and not those sleep in 1992. Thus the only critical observation here is that 1992 occurs before 1994.
The WTS is thus an organization that is for a while a mixture of wheat and weeds, and thus accurate and inaccurate knowledge. 1914 is correct 1 out of three times for the WTS:
1) CORRECT: It is the beginning of the last generation of 80 years since that generation begins with a world war, thus from 1914-1994.
2) INCORRECT: It is not the date of the "end of the gentile times" which occurs in 1947 whem the Jews come out of exile and have their own homeland again.
3) INCORRECT: It is not the date of the second coming since the true date for the fall of Jerusalem was 529 BCE and not 607 BCE. That means the 2nd coming was to occur in 1992 and not 1914.
YOU CAN MANIPUJLATE THE SIGNS ALL YOU WANT, but the signs + the chronology are what identify the "last generation". You can't separate the chronology, especially in the WTS setting.
2520 years from te fall of Jerusalem is the 2nd coming. You choice: 607, 587 or 529 BCE. The "last generation" that would see the signs would end in 1994. It came true. The "great tribulation" is not Armageddon but the HOLOCAUST. That occurred before 1994. The blossoming of the fig tree, which represented the establishment of the State of Israel after the Holocaust/great tribulation did occur before 1994. The promised "sign of the son of man" began to be seen after the birth of the prodigal son messiah in January of 1950. That was fulfilled. And the 2nd comking, of course, did fulfill the 1335 days and "7 times" prophecy when Jerusalem is correctly dated as falling in 529 BCE, thus the second coming in 1992. It actually happened.
So nothing is wrong withi the Bible's chronology or signs, what is wrong is the wrong chronology and interpretation.
LS
I was on vacation in 1992 what happened, what did I miss?
Get this straight. The "great tribulatoin" of Matthew is NOT Armageddon!! The "end of the system of things" is a reference to the end of the state of affairs of gentile rule for the Jews. Thus the "end of the system of things" is synonymous with the "end of the gentile times" which occurred in 1947.
The "good news" was preached literally by NH Knorr in early 1947 in a worldwide lecture campaign, "and then the end" came on November 30, 1947.
Matthew 24:29-30 clearly shows that the "great tribulation" occurs before and is completely over before the 2nd coming: "AFTER the tribulation of those days... the sign of the son of man appears in heaven"! Armageddon's 'great tribulation occurs after the 2nd cominkg and after the gathering and sealing of the elect! So the "great tribulation" of Matthew is not associated with the "great tribulation" of Armageddon mentioned in Revelation! The firsdt "great tribulatoin" was WWI and the HOLOCAUST! Note that JWS AND THE JEWS were both targets as "holy ones" of the Holocaust!
See video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnTy8_EhE0Y
ls
If anough darts are thrown at a dart board, even a blind man could hit the bullseye.
As enough crap has been 'thrown' into the bable, one or two predictions are bound to be hits.
It means nothing as far as being accurate or prophetic.
oz
AGUEST:
I'd wager 100 times that that it will be here at LEAST 1,000 years after the "date and hour" that my Lord returns, dear designs (peace to you!). Since he hasn't returned yet, that gives us, well, more than 1,000 years to start. John knew that and wrote of it:
Per your interpretation, Christ has not returned. JWs believe Christ returned in 1914. The JIOR know he returned in 1992.
What is of interest is how some think his return brings Armageddon and that is considered his return. But as the Bible clearly shows, his return occurs first, then he sends out his angels to seal the elect. When that is done, then Armageddon happens and the millenium begins. The "return" and Armageddon are two different things.
Anyway, as I've noted before, depending upon your interpretation of chronology and other Biblical prophecies, whether Christ has returned or not depends upon those ideas. Per my belier, Christ returned in 1992; December 25-26th.
In that regard, for Christ to fulfill arriving as a "thief in the night" some will be aware of his return before the majority do, who will experience his return as a past event. When the household wakes up, then is when they discover they have been robbed. When the world wakes up, they will discover Christ has come and judged the world. Those without the mark will perish.
LS
How come nice people always have to perish in the Christian's scheme.
If anough darts are thrown at a dart board, even a blind man could hit the bullseye.
As enough crap has been 'thrown' into the bable, one or two predictions are bound to be hits.
It means nothing as far as being accurate or prophetic.
oz
Hi Oz. It is a bit more complex than that. Several chronology prophecies have to all coordinate on the same date. That makes the difference. Let's just demonstrate that.
1914: The WTS has come up with 1914 as the second coming based on the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, the date they trust to be correct. But the bible shows that Christ does not arrive until after the State of Israel is set up. The return to their homeland is referenced by the fig tree. Only shortly after the fig tree begins to blossom is Christ "near at the doors." So 1914 fails in that regard since the "end of the gentile times" did not occur until November 30, 1947.
Others who trust popular secular chronology think Jerusalem fell in 587 BCE. That would date the 2nd coming 2520 later to 1934. This is a date that fails Biblically as well since 1934 is also prior to 1947. So it doesn't work.
Another required fulfillment is the return of Christ during the 70th week. Counting from 36 CE, the 70th week nearest our time occurs in 1989-1996. That is, 490 years is 70 weeks. The 70th week of the 1st coming was from 29-36 CE, the 490 years beginning in 455 BCE. Count down 490-year periods to our time and the final 490 years begins in 1506 and ends in 1996. The 70th week is from 1989-1996. So the messiah must arrive in the middle of this week to fulfill the 70th week prophecy. 1914 and 1934 do not occur during this period. So both of these fail.
Per your concept, maybe with enough chances you'll get some of this right. Maybe that is true for some other scenario, but per 607 BCE or 6878 BCE being the fall of Jerusalem, both fail.
Now what about 1992?
1) 1992 is after 1947. So that fits one o the criteria that 1914 and 1934 fail.
2) 1992 is in th emiddle of the 70th week of 1989-1996. So it fits that criteria.
3) If 1992 is the true date of the 2nd coming, then the fall of Jerusalem must occur in 529 BCE. The question is, what is there that supports 529 BCE as the true date for the fall of Jerusalem?
That's where the questions end because of the critical astrotext called the VAT4956. It dates year 37 of Neb-II to 568 BCE, except for two references; one in Line 3 and one in Line 14. Two lunar positions are noted not to match 568 BCE. They are considered "errors" until you note both lunar positions are a day earlier and fit precisely the same lunar cycle. Lunar positions are sensitive to 2-4 hours. 2 hours is one degree. Thus the academic question arises whether these "errors" were intentional or not?
Martin Anstey concluded that the "70th week" prophecy must be fulfilled by Cyrus and thus his first year must be dated to 455 BCE. Following that chronology and that of Josephus, the 70 years of desolation which began with the last deportation dates year 23 of Neb-II to 525 BCE. That means that year 37 falls in 511 BCE. That's where the fun comes in. If you check the specific dates in the VAT4956 and the lunar positions, you find that both Lines 3 and 14 match 511 BCE. So this text preempts the 568 BCE dating and establishes that 511 BCE was the true, original year 37 of Neb-II. In that case, though, year 19 falls in 529 BCE which would date the 2nd coming to 1992. So there is some extant secular reference that independently confirms year 37 of Neb-II in 511 BCE that agrees with strict Bible chronology that dates the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE. So the VAT4956 disproves both 1914 and 1934 for the second coming, but arrives at the same dating when the 1st of Cyrus falls in 455 BCE! So we are at the point of no return at this point. 529 BCE for year 19 of Neb-II cannot be overturned by any kind of secular reference now. But you also have Biblical harmony for the VAT4956's dating.
Now, do you see how the idea that if you keep throwing darts doesn't work. Sure if you throw 1000 darts some percentage will hit the jackpot. But per the Bible, it requires 75-100% of those darts to hit the jackpot. That removes the presumption of "reasonable coincidence" over the odds. The Bible requires you to hit the bullseye too many times for there to be any coincidence.
1992 harmonizes Jesus' baptism in 29 CE plus the return of the Jews in 1947, both linked to prophecies pointing to the year of the 2nd coming. 1947, which is the true "end of the gentile times" and thus the end of 1290 days, dates the messiah's return 45 years later, and thus in 1992.
The 70th week prophecy requires the messiah to arrive at the second coming during the 70th week, which is from 1989-1996 and thus also in 1992.
Based also on 29 CE for Jesus' baptism, the 1st of Cyrus occurs in 455 BCE and 70 years earlier, the last deportation in 525 BCE, dating year 19, the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE. This is directly supported by the VAT4956. When 529 BCE dates the fall of jerusalem, then 2520 years later points to 1992 as the year of the second coming. So Biblically speaking, there is no flexibility here. Too many events have to all line up to point to the same year and they do.
So your claim that this can be done if you work at it for maybe one or two other dates. Well the onus is on YOU to prove that. Of course, you don't have time to do so, do you? Of course not. But there is zero flexibility for the year of the second coming because of 29 CE and 1947. 45 years after 1947 has zero flexibility. The 70th week of 1989-1996 based on 29-36 CE also has zero flexibility. And now we have secular evidence pointing to 529 BCE as the year for the fall of Jerusalem. So it's a done deal. Face reality and truth.
LS
