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JW Apologists, Lurkers, etc., can you prove the selection in 1919?
by garyneal 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Dutch-scientist
Hi Garyneal,
last time a speaker ask why JW's know that the end times begin in 1914?
The common members didnt know to answer only one elder make the 7 times link. Even he mentioned that the year in revelation was 365 days??? And no one even noticed this.
The problem is they dont know and dont care. It is already solved by the FDS so it must be true they think.
And if you ask pleaase proof then they come with printed stuff from their CD rom about the topic and see here is the proof.
proof of them is that what the FDS says or write. Most JW's dont think further.
DS
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designs
DS- That really is the situation. Repeated enough times and always with the overhanging threat of being labeled 'apostate' if you aren't in line with the FDS what is a Witness to do.
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cedars
My trouble is with this argument, as sound as it is, is that I'm not convinced that many Witnesses DO realise that their whole belief structure hangs on the events that supposedly happened invisibly in 1919. My experience from when I was an active Witness was that whenever dates like 1918 or 1919 were brought up in book studies, etc - they were treated with an almost unanimous shrugging of the shoulders by everyone present (even some of the more experienced brothers and sisters). Everyone just accepts that the Society was chosen back then, and that's all there is to it. I'm sure there are many who are baptized who, if pressed on the issue, wouldn't even be able to answer coherently about whether their religion WAS chosen by God in 1919. They just know it as being their religion, and "the truth".
If Witnesses themselves took the 1919 thing more seriously, and realised its true significance, it would be much easier to reason with people on this subject.
Cedars
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Franklin Massey
Cedars is right. If you ask the average JW to explain, in detail, the doctrine surrounding the special choosing of JWs in the early 1900's, most will fumble through the details and then try to end on a positive note about Christian unity, or love, or worldwide preaching, or whatever.
As I've been fading, I've noticed that a lot of JWs don't get Watchtower doctrine. The foundations for JWs being specially chosen by God are some of the most difficult teachings for JWs to grasp. They're more inclined to point to their application of basic Christian ideas as the "proof" that they are part of the one true religion. The problem is that almost all "Christian" religions teach the same basic things. JWs are not special in trying to be nice, accepting Jesus as their savior, sharing the gospel, awaiting a special reward in the afterlife, etc. But they are constantly told that there version is superior so they buy into the whole package, whether they really understand it all or not.
If a JW is faced with the realization that some of their foundational doctrine is shaky, or false, they quickly jump to a "happy place," usually basic Christianity, to soothe their troubled mind.
They won't face the fact that they can't prove the obtuse doctrine because they like being JWs. They think its the only way.
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jonathan dough
If Russell was preaching the occult, why would Jesus choose the JWs in 1919.
This documented historical connection with the occult is evident in several ways. Russell relied heavily on astrological predictions and signs of the zodiac. Rutherford believed that Jehovah most likely resided in the Pleiades constellation. Many of Rutherford and Russell's false predictions were calculated based on alignment and measurement of ancient Egyptian pyramids relying in essence on the powers of the occult. A small pyramid was erected next to Russell's grave as a memorial to his life and work. The satanic All-Seeing Eye of occult worship adorns Russell's memorial pyramid, and early Watchtower publications incorporate Masonic symbolism to a great degree. Furthermore, the Divine Plan of the Ages, an early Watchtower book, is adorned with the Winged Sun Disc, an Egyptian religious symbol of pagan origins and false worship.
The Jehovahs Witnesses can run from their occult past, but they can't hide. Nor can they sweep these truths under the rug of their New Light Doctrine. Due to such an un-biblical foundation that continued well into the 1920s, it is inconceivable that Jesus Christ chose the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as their sole representatives on earth due to the purity of their faith.http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/occult_jehovahs_witnesses.html
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Franklin Massey
JD, allow me to play JW here and reply with this:
The Organization has never been perfect, as it is comprised of imperfect people. But Jehovah and Jesus have a plan, as outlined in the Holy Scriptures, and they chose this Organization to carry it out. We don't use those symbols anymore because Holy Spirit delivers new light. JWs are always progressing and refining. I mean, the friends used to celebrate Christmas at Bethel! LOLZ! But look at us now, the happiest, most loving people on earth. Our numbers are growing! Evidently, Jehovah is blessing us and the Faithful and Discreet slave is providing spiritual food at the proper time.
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stillstuckcruz
"It is important to understand that in most Bible-based cults, although the member is aggressively taught doctrine, it is not the doctrine that holds him in the group. It is the sense that the group is God's true people, a feeling cultivated by techniques of mind control. Thus, to engage the cult member in a Biblical argument or discussion is often futile." Stephen Hassan Releasing the Bonds p.145
---->That's the reason they will not show you. Generally speaking, most JW's, especially newer ones, haven't the foggiest idea about that time. But they feel they are "God's people" and so anything they say goes.
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wannabefree
I've asked my wife similar questions, pleading to help me see it, to prove it. My problem is that I am considered a JW so there is no point, I should know better, I shouldn't listen to apostates, she refuses to try and help me for fear of it causing doubt that she doesn't want to have. Since you are "just" and unbeliever, hopefully these questions have some sort of impact on those you ask.
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thetrueone
One thing worth considering is all religious organizations self proclaim in one way or another that they are god's chosen earthly organization.
For this religious publishing house (WTS.) to self proclaim this also is not at all surprising, in that they were trying to cultivate some validation
and reverence toward themselves, which would also cultivate a semblance of power and control.
The WTS./JWS is a very commercial religion in the way it's presented to the public.