Yo Oz, the memorial partakers amongst JWs believe they are "the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 38:8) and "the land of the Decoration" (Dan. 11:41, 45), as well as spiritual "Jerusalem" (Zech. 14:2), and "the two witnesses" (Rev. 11:3). Well, "the mountains" and the "Decoration" are going to be invaded (and occupied). "Jerusalem" is going to be pillaged, and the two witnesses are going to be killed. This means that if they are who they say they are, as an organization they will be destroyed (cf. Dan. 12:7). These will stumble, meaning they will be killed. The word for stumble in Dan. 11 means "to cause to fall". In HALOT this verb is described "to fall, collapse (of a government or dynasty) Dan. 11:14, 19, 33, 35, 41." Think about it. The GB and anointed ones will either be arrested or killed, and the Bethel houses around the world expropriated. With JWs leaderless, the preaching work will grind to a halt. If that is the case and it happens accordingly, will you then believe? Time will tell....
How to silence family/elders, and not be labeled apostate, prove the 1,000 year reign understanding is false....
by EndofMysteries 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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designs
End- I suggest reading up on the different Eschatological views held in Christianity.
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NewChapter
If that is the case and it happens accordingly, will you then believe? Time will tell....
And if it doesn't happen, and excuse after excuse is given to claim it was "postponed", will you stop believing? Perhaps time has already told.
NC
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Vidqun
Yo Designs, been there, done that. Here is some of the stuff I unearthed, for those that are interested in the topic. These phrases are called eschatological markers and this is what some had to say concerning the subject:
’acharith hayyamim = latter (part of the) days
’acharith = end, issue: spatial meaning, hind part of cow, remote sea (cf. Ps. 139:9); temporal meaning, end (of the year), in future days, outcome, result, in the end, finally. Antonym: qêdêm (= formerly).
The formulaic expression be’acharith hayyamim is generally used in the sense “time to come” (e.g., Gen. 49:1), then the “future”, and “the end of time” as we know it (e.g., Isa. 2:2; Mic. 4:1; Hos. 3:5; Ezek. 38:16; Dan. 2:28; 10:14). See TDOT, vol. VI, p. 19.
According to the editors of TWOT, “E. H. Wolff likens the Hebrew conception of time to the situation of a man rowing a boat. He sees the past as before him (qêdêm); the future is behind his back (’acharith).” The interpretation depends on the context. It is possible to use the latter for the eschaton as well as the general future because obviously all eschatology is future, but not all future is eschatology. In the majority of cases the phrase “(in) the latter part of the days” could be defined as “the end of human history as we know it” (cf. Jer. 30:24; Is. 2:2; Mic. 4:1; Ez. 38:8, 16). More specifically, in the book of Daniel: “(God in heaven) has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the ’acharith of the days (2:28). The point of the vision does not lie in the course of future events, but in the destruction of the colossus and in the coming of an indestructible kingdom (v. 44). Thus the outcome of the future is what is intended, and not the future in general. Similarly, 10:14 says: “I (the angel that had appeared) came to make you understand what is to befall your people in (at) the ’acharith of the days. For the vision is for days yet to come.” Since the following material deals with the stages of history from Cyrus to Antiochus IV, the meaning “future” cannot be excluded here; but the real purpose of the vision is to show how history will culminate, thus its outcome. Therefore, this passage has in mind the end, and not merely the future.” (TDOT, vol. I, pp. 211, 212)
Daniel asked, “what will be the final part of these things?” (cf. Dan. 12:8) The reference to “after(wards)” does not necessarily point to a chronological end, but “to show how history will culminate, thus its outcome” (TDOT, vol. I, p. 212). Such a biblical concept is not far-fetched at all. A similar view is held by political economist and author, Francis Fukuyama. In his 1992 book The End of History and the Last Man, he wrote: “What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: that is, the end point of mankind’s ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government.”
`eith qeits = end time
`eith : “time”. (Sept. 162 times kairos, 26 times houra, twice khronos). Time of judgement, time of the end (Is. 13:22 of Babel; Ez. 22:3 of Jerusalem), time of final punishment (Ez. 21:30, 34; 35:5).
qeits : “end”. The noun qes derives from the common Semitic root qtsts “cut off”, “cut to pieces”, end, temporal (period of time), 1) end (of lifetime), 2) period of time, 3) historical period, 4) eschatology, or spatial, end (edges) of earth, heavens, cf. Jer. 49:36. Antonym: ro’sh (= beginning).
Historical period : Often qeits denotes a specific span of time in the past or future. The expression `eith `äwon qeits (Ez. 21:30, 34 [25, 29]; 35:5) refers to the period of the monarchy, which ended with the destruction of Jerusalem on account of Israel’s sins. Similarly, in Dan. 9:26 the phrase weqitstsou bashshêthêph we`adh qeits milhhâmâh is to be understood as referring to a historical period of devastating wars that mark the culmination of divine judgement.
The connotation “historical period” or “age” is sometimes, as above, made explicit by association with other temporal terms: qeits par. `eith (Jer. 50:26, 27; Ez. 7:6, 7), `eith qeits (Dan. 8:17; 11:35, 40; 12:4, 9); inverted qeits hâ`ittîm (Dan. 11:13; expanded: Ez. 35:5) or made manifest by added terms kî-`odh lammou`eidh (Dan. 11:35)… The phrase weyâpheiahh laqqeits in Hab. 2:3, explained by `oudh hâzoun lammou’eidh, refers to an event expected to occur in the near future kî-bo’ yâbhou’ lo’ ye’ahheir, not in an apocalyptic time frame. This historical interpretation is reflected in 1QpHab. 7:1ff. (cf. TDOT, vol. XIII, pp. 82, 83).
Time of [the] end (= [the] end time): This phrase occurs six times in the Bible and is exclusive to the book of Daniel. “The expression qes in the book of Daniel (8:17, 19; 11:35, 40; 12:4, 9; cf. Hab. 2:3) clearly aims to convey a juxtaposition of the present and the eschatological future; for, although “the time of the final phase” refers primarily to the period of persecution by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, this period is also the time of tribulation that marks the opening phase of the eschaton” (TDOT, vol. XI, p. 450). Daniel had to seal the book till the “end time”. From there he would “go toward the end”, i.e., rest, and then stand up to collect his reward (cf. Dan. 12:4, 9, 13).
Eschatology : Only in a few late biblical texts does qeits occur in an eschatological context. The expression laqqeits and leqeits hayyamîn in Dnl. 12:13 clearly refer to the “end of time”. This does not mean that time will stop, but that history as we know it, will come to an end. In this context the phrase qeits happelâ’outh in verse 6 can also be interpreted eschatologically; but the meaning “appointed age” is preferable to an eschatological interpretation. The expression qeits happelâ’outh anticipates a “wonderful age,” the beginning of which is determined by preceding period of “two and a half times” (v. 7). In Ezk. 7:2-6, similarly, (haq)qeits denotes an age of destined punishment of the people (cf. vv. 7-8, qâroubh miqqâroubh); and Amos 8:2 should not be equated with the eschatological “day of Yahweh” of Amos 5:18ff. (TDOT, vol. XIII, p. 83)
Coming back to the book of Daniel, according to the angel, the big horn or fierce king, later introduced as King of the South, will stand up during the “[the] end time” (cf. Dan. 7:9, 10, 13, 14, 20, 26, 27; 8:17, 19). This King will then become involved in a final military confrontation with the King of the North, a most trying time for God’s people (cf. Dan. 11:35, 40). During this time Michael will stand up (as king), his people will escape, and [true] knowledge will become abundant as the seal on the book of Daniel is broken (Dan. 7:13, 14; 8:26; 9:24; 12:1, 4, 9). The big horn and fierce king, alias King of the South, will then be destroyed, broken without a [human] hand (cf. Dan. 7:26; 8:25b). A similar fate awaits the King of the North. He will come “all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him” (Dan. 11:45; cf. 2:44, 45).
As seen, the phrase “[the] end time” corresponds closely to “latter (part of the) days” (cf. Dan. 8:19). But according to available evidence, there appears to be a slight variation between the two. This involves duration. Whereas t he “end” (= cutting off) brings finality to the phrase “[the] end time” (emphasis on “end”, thus “conclusion”), the word ’acharith adds a continuous element to “after(wards)”, or “latter (or final) part of the days” (emphasis on “latter”, thus “future”) . In other words, “[th e] end time” will conclude with the battle of Armageddon (cf. Rev. 16:14, 16; 19:19-21), whilst the period covering the “latter part of the days” will stretch into the millennium (cf. Dan. 2:28, 44; 10:14). The relatively short “end time” should therefore be incorporated into the longer “latter part of the days” (cf. Dan. 8:19; 12:8, 9).
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Vidqun
NewChapter, here you should allow a little leeway. I believe Dan. 11:41-45 lies in the future. Two options: If Dan. 11:40 refers to the Cold War, then this passage refers to the near future. Historians agree that the Berlin Blockade of 1948 would initiate the “Cold War”. It would end with the dismantling of the Berlin Wall in 1989, leading to German reunification, formally concluded on October 3, 1990. What follows could then happen in out lifetime. Other commentators view the passage as referring to the Antichrist, i.e., far into the future. If that is the case, we might not see it unfold. The way things are happening, I put my money on the first option (see Fukuyama's quote above).
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Ding
For you the Bible is the final authority, but for most JWs it's what the Watchtower SAYS the Bible means that's the final authority.
Unfortunately, for many JWs the only two scriptures that matter are Matthew 24:45-47 and Proverbs 4:18.
In their minds, these verses together mean, "The WTS is God's one true faithful and discreet slave organization and even when the GB is wrong, Jehovah is working through them so you have to believe and obey them without question."
Given that, as soon as you try to convince them that the WTS is wrong about Gog and Magog, their eyes will glaze over with watchtowers and they won't consider anything you have to say.
I'm not saying that no JWs will come out of the WTS because of what the Bible says about the end times, but I think that will be extremely rare.
Even if you succeed in convincing some that the WT view is wrong, most will wait for Jehovah to straighten out "his organization."
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Vidqun
Yes, Ding, I believe you're right. Flogging a dead horse, farting against thunder, come to mind. Nevertheless, I hope I'm wrong. I don't wish such a fate on my worst enemy. But, alas, what is written is written.
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designs
Trading one set of fears for another set of fears is never healthy nor a solution.
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Larsinger58
VIDQUN: The name Magog occurs once in the Table of Nations (Gen. 10:2) and once in Chronicles (1 Chron. 1:5). Keil & Delitzsch suggest that this might refer to a type, encompassing all enemies of Israel.
The context of the passage in Revelation indicates that it would be fulfilled after the thousand years (cf. Rev. 20:3, 7, 8), whereas Ez. 38 & 39 point to "the latter part of the days" (Ez. 38:16; cf. Dan. 2:28; Is. 2:1, etc.).
Lars, Nazi-like individuals might be part of Gog's crowd. They certainly qualify. However, like simon17 says, it's open to interpretation.
Thanks for your reflections, but why are you stepping over a critical and primary reference to whom Magog is? You note at Genesis 10:2 it is a reference to a specific nation. So are we in doubt to whom Magog is all of a sudden? Is Magog no longer associated this national group? If not, you have to explain why and the only explanation would be if there was more direct evidence it was not associated with this nation.
But what do we find? MAGOG as a descendant of Japheth. Japheth is considered the father of the white nations. These did settle primarily in the "north" as well, so there is connection there of who these people were.
But the most critical identification is that Gog of Magog is the primary entity that devastates Judea! It is the "digusting thing that causes desolation." So all we have to do is check our history books to see who desolated the Jews during WWII, exterminating 2/3rds of them as prophesied by Zech 13:8
8 “And it must occur in all the land,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “[that] two parts in it are what will be cut off [and] expire; and as for the third [part], it will be left remaining in it. 9 And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine them as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say, ‘It is my people,’ and it, in its turn, will say, ‘Jehovah is my God.’”
Further, if you read closely, you see that Jehovah himself is employing Gog to come against his own people, to punish them. God's anger is directed at his own people for breaking the covenant. Breaking the covenant meant they would be scattered among the nations and a sword would follow them. The climax of that punishment was a devastating "great tribulation" like had never occurred before nor would occur again. It would wipe out two thirds of the nation. Six million Jews out of nine million vanished during the Holocaust to fulfill this event.
So at this point, we ask just who did this devastation? The answer is German Nazis? When we compare this with the identification of Magog, it corresponds with white descendants of Japheth. So we're done here. Gog of Magog are Nazi Germans and those who ascribe to their Nazi propaganda. Gog is destroyed after it desolated Judea, meaning the Jews in exile, but we see it rearing its ugly head again after the millenium. Again, it is important to note that the attack of Gog on the lands of Judea, meaning the lands the Jews occupy in exile (Eastern Europe primarily) is a different event than after the 1000-year regn. After the tribulation of those days, the messiah arrives and then seals the elect. Then the 1000 years begins. At its end Satan is let loose who then inspires a new "Gog of Magog" which is a reference to white supremacists. So Gog of Magog, the "disgusting thing" actually represents the believers in white supremacy. So apparently after the 1000 years, where all will be equal in a multi-cultural society, Satan inspires racism again among whites who adopt the tenants we find in the KKK and within Nazism, which elements become chief opposers to Christ and his elect.
Now this becomes especially understandable because the person chosen to embody the Christ in the flesh at the second coming is a gay black male, the "Ethiopian eunuch." So there is a special forcus to rebel against the new Christ which Satan takes advantage of, which is that he is black and thus inferior to whites who should be ruling.
So you are right that a lot depends on interpretation, but once you know that Gog of Magog is the entity that brings on the Holocaust, it is a no-brainer who Gog of Magog must be, which is Nazi Germans/white supremacists. They are the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" to the Jews in WWI and which are re-invented by Satan's inspiration after the 1000-year reign.
Again, a central and key point: Gog of Magog at first, is God's own ally to punish the descendants of disobedient Jews. It is Jehovah that brings Gog against his own people and devastates 2/3rds of them.
Now Matthew notes "the days were cut short" on account of the holy ones, or else no flesh would be saved. that is directly fulfilled since the devastation was to take place over 7 years. The 7 years begin after 62 weeks, or 434 years into the last 490 years (seventy weeks) from 1506 to 1996. This is calculated from the end of the 70th week in 36 CE. (4x490=1960 + 36 CE = 1996 AD) 434 years after 1506 = 1940. So from 1940-1947 would be the years of this "great tribulation" that would wipe out 2/3rds of the Jews dwelling in "Judea", which means where they would primarily have resettled in exile. Thus where the Jews live becomes the new "Judea." But th3e Nazis were so efficient, they had exterminated 2/3rds of the Jews by the end of 1944. Thus WWI was cut short based on a severe winter in Russia and the entry of the US into the war. This cut short the war. Had Hitler continued is destruction, then his intent was to kill off all Jews worldwide as well as half Jews. Therefore, there was a literal threat that all the "flesh" of the Jews would be destroyed. To preserve 1/3, the tribulation of WWII was cut short. then after the end of the 7 years in 1947, God restored the land of Israel to the Jews, on November 30, 1947. He was then to bless them, which he has. The State of Israel is a major, respected nation in the world now.
So in conclusion, the primary means of identifying "Gog of Magog" is to observe which entity was responsible for the Holocaust, which were Nazi Germans. Germans are white descendants of Magog, so that's the connection. The entity of a Nazi state was destroyed after WWII, but that entity is reinspired after the 1000-year reign by Satan. This entity rebels against Christ and his multi-cultural elect, which is particularly understandable, because Christ inhabits a black man's body during the 1000-year reign.
That's just one intepretation, but it's the official interpretation of those claiming to belong to the "elect". Take it or leave it.
LS
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Larsinger58
AUSSIE: The so called single most important literature ever given to mankind cannot be clearly understood by anybody. Riddles, clues, parables and dreams, shit, a 10 year old could write a more understandable story.
You are right the Bible is confusing. It is meant to be, but to scorners. The secrets of Bible understanding are primarily for the elect who understand and are given the light to unravel these mysteries. They are the wise virgins with the extra oil who get their lamps burning just in time for the second coming. But before, even they were nodding and their lamps dim, meaning they had no special understanding either.
Remember that "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." meaning after WWII and the Holocaust, then God would impose spiritual darkness upon all of Christendom, including the WTS and the 10 virgins. The sun and moon would not give its light and the stars would fall from heaven. So no spiritual understanding would exist except with the "eagles" who guard over and surround themselves around the secret Christ until he is anointed in 1992.
So yes, you verify this book is very confusing to most, but not to all. The elect, like myself, have the correct understanding of these prophecies. But even so, if someone like yourself has an opportunity to hear the raw truth, the "new wine" it can be too much for you. Even the Bible notes that God would make things so unbelievable during these times that even if they were explained to you in detail, you would not believe it.
41 ‘Behold it, YOU scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in YOUR days, a work that YOU will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to YOU in detail.’”
So in reality, Jehovah's Day is a day of thick gloom and darkness, thus there is no real intention to enlighten the wicked about his specific plans. And if they happen to stumble upon the full knowledge and "new light" it would confuse and confound them so, they would not believe it!
Do you believe a gay black male is the true messiah, a body being used by Christ since 1992? Hmmmmm? That's the reality.
Do you believe some from the 1st Century are still alive so that the 12 tribes of Israel could be reconstituted from individuals from those tribes from the 1st Century, and thus the 12 tribes of Israel exist again? Hmmmmm? Too hard to believe?
Do you believe that John and Paul never died as the bible says? It's true. I've seem them. But can you believe it?
Of course you can't. Jehovah has made it impossible for you to believe, even though it is true.
So your observation is correct about the Bible being a closed book, except it is not closed to the elect, who both understand and become part of the reality of what was prophesied, including recognizing Christ's return in 1992 in the body of a gay black male, the "Ethiopian eunuch" messiah through the tribe of Joseph not Judah, also as prophesied in scripture (Genesis 49).
So that's the way it is. Welcome to reality and Bible truth. The Bible true and all its prophecies are being fulfilled right before your eyes, which are closed.
LS