evolution question

by outsmartthesystem 165 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • binadub
    binadub

    to stillajwxelder, NewChapter and jonathanH:

    What you are all exhibiting is how offended people become when something SEEMS to challenge their beliefs, even when it is not intended.

    I thought I made it quite clear that I was not attempting to refute evolution nor claim that it is false. I'm saying that people who vehemently defend it, or just believe it, believe it on faith. You believe what someone else has written about it or reports of what has been performed in laboratories or in the field. Not to mention there is a lot of opposing arguments to everything you have rebutted here.

    I've worked for nuclear scientists all of my adult life and I know that they like to be right just as much as you do. None of you have offered any kind of proof. To say that science cannot be proved is utter nonsense. I consider observation to be proof, but that's me. But what is true is that just because something is proved to me does not prove it to anyone else. If I tell someone that something has been proved, and they believe it, they are believing it on faith, not evidence nor proof. That's my point.

    Macro-evolution may be true, but stillajwxelder, what evidence are you talking about? Give me just one. The fact that anthropologists have found the skeletal bones of homo sapiens that are hundreds of thousands of years old? That does not provide evidence of evolution. It proves that there were species that are now extinct, nothing more. There are trillions of species on earth today. Yet scientists claim that more species have become extinct than exist.

    In fact, I have not argued evidence, I've presented links to what scientists and archeologists say. I don't know that the first cities were built in Mesopotamia. All I know is that the people who study the history of civilization claim that that's where it all began. If I say I believe it, I'm believing it on faith. Belief in God is faith. Belief in evolution is faith.

    NewChapter:
    I'm very familiar with the Code of Hammurabi. I agree that it has remarkable similarities to the laws of the Israelites. It's my opinion that it was very likely an influence on the Mosaic laws and culture, but that's an opinion.
    Again, it is amusing to me that people here interpreted my civilization links as intending to refute evolution. All I said is that in looking and expecting to find proof or at least strong circumstantial evidence, I have not found one proof of observed transition from one creature kind to another; only hypotheses. Of course that does not disprove the hypotheses. But what I am seeing proof of is that you people believe it with certainty--on faith. There are numerous high-ranking scientists who disagree with you. That's not me, that's them. I'm neither pro nor con on the issue, because I don't care if evolution is true. Can you comprehend that?

    My reference to the sudden appearance of what we call "civilization" in a relatively short period of time was that it has an interesting relevance to the biblical account, just like the Hammurabi has an interesting relevance to the Israelites. Archeologists claim that civilization and the building of cities began in Mesopotamia, and so does Genesis. Interesting. As to evolution, Gould's punctuated equilibrium does disagree with Darwin's in that Darwin's theory promotes gradual evolution and the PE theory promotes sudden appearance of new species. Gould claimed he did not dispute Darwin's theory of evolution, but reason shows that there is a difference in their theories. If Gould's theory that it could occur even "from a single pair," then that has interesting implications for an original pair of what we call homo sapiens sapiens.

    Can you tell me who anthropoligists claim are our immediate human ancestors, the ones who would have been the hunters/gatherers who became the city builders in Mesopotamia? I provided links that show that there are credible scientists who claim that dna has proved we are not descendents from Neanderthals. Again...it's NOT me saying it. I'm not a scientist nor anthropologist. Are any of you?

    jonathanH:
    You are simply parroting what pro-evolutionists and pseuo-scientists argue. I've read all that. You make claims and still do not provide substantial evidence of speciation or strong circumstantial evidence of biological transition. I'll say it again--all I've seen is evidence of species that are extinct.

    With regard to math, the claim is that the great pyramids of Egypt are one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, not because of their size or the mystery of where all those huge blocks came from, but because of the mathematical perfection. It is said that the height of the great pyramid relative to the distance around the base is the same as the radius is to the circumference of a circle. It indicates they understood pi and advanced geometry to have designed it, not just built it. And what else is remarkable is that every single block had to be carved to a specific size essentially to perfection for a structure that size to be that mathematically perfect. Math of that caliber was not evident--according to the researchers--prior to the civilizations (city building) in Mesopotamia. That's what THEY say.

    My point is that most people, like yourselves, believe evolition on faith, not proof nor even strong circumstantial evidence that you have observed. And I was exactly the same way until I decided to seek the evidence for myself. If indeed evolultion theory follows the Scientific Method, should we be able to predict what the next human species will be?

    In any case, I don't want to offend your sensibilities any more, and your comprehension is lacking imo. So I'll leave you to your faith and the JWs to theirs. :-)))

    ~Binadub

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    First of all, I'm not offended. I'm amused. I'm not defending my faith, I'm supporting my facts. You are also being obtuse. Civilization did not suddenly pop up, it was a process. A long drawn out process at that. Go back and read some more. The only "sudden" thing about it, is that this was the moment in time when scholars defined civilization. So a group of foragers become horiticulturists. But they still live a subsistence life style. Then someone successfully domesticates a crop, now they are foraging less. Now they can work on skills such as metalurgy and writing. They figure out how to make an ox pull a plow that has a metal tip that they learned how to make through metalurgy. Time moves on, and now they are producing more food than they need. Stratification occurs. Some members can devote their entire time to specialties. People can own land and store wealth, so now we have a hierarchy. Craftsmen live in the same place, because centralizing these services makes trade more convenient. You have urban centers. The outlaying areas continue to develop agricultural technique, supported by the goods the craftsmen make. And one day, the society reaches the criteria where they can be called complex, and claim the designation civilization. What is so sudden about that? Think about---foraging for tens of thousands of years before they reach civilization. This was not sudden.

    NO ANTHROPOLOGIST WILL TELL YOU THAT WE ARE DESCENDED FROM NEANDERTHAL! What is wrong with you that you cannot process that? You think that you are supporting something because you keep saying that H sapien didn't descend from neanderthal, but all you are proving is that you do not understand the theory or the process.

    Punctuated equilibrium did NOT disprove Darwin's theory. It refined it. Darwin posited that all speciation was gradual and took a very long time. Gould simply theorized that it didn't have to happen that way, but under the right circumstances, it could happen relatively quickly. He wasn't objecting to the theories of speciation, only the speed of such.

    And regarding our immediate ancestors---the hunter gatherer ones---that was US. We like premodern humans before us, were foragers.

    NC

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I provided links that show that there are credible scientists who claim that dna has proved we are not descendents from Neanderthals. Again...it's NOT me saying it. I'm not a scientist nor anthropologist. Are any of you?

    The fun part about your argument is that you appeal to authority when it suits you, and dismiss authority when it doesn't. I'm not an anthropologist, by my cousin has a PHD in anthropolgy. We talk. I am also being taught by a professor with a PHD in anthropology. They disagree with you. They are the authority. One does not have to be an anthropologist to understand some basic science and to have critical thinking skills. you are all over the place. Your arguments are not coherent, and they chop off before deeper thinking can reveal the true meaning of what you have read. You think that because we did not descend from neanderthals, you are proving some point. What do you know of H. erectus? Why have you not factored that into your understanding? That would be more relevent to our ancestry than neanderthal.

    MC

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    I'm quite frankly tired of both sides of the same fundamentalist coin.

    If there is a God it's clear that its morals are not those represented in any text and not at all representative of what anyone would call moral today when viewed from the average human perspective.

    I would never have designed a universe like this one.

    Having said this...

    I know about hox genes, and jumping genes. I know about micro and macro evolution. I'm familiar with the work of Gould and Dawkins and the host before these two. I've spent years reading as much as I can with regard to the framework of all the various supporting disciplines and found them all wanting for their presumed materialist foundation.

    The mechanisms suggested in every scenario fail to explain the whole and that when pressed the faithful on both sides resort to emotional rebuttals which don't address the problems.

    When we have a situation as this, that the laws of physics are not derivative of matter, we have of necessity mind as the essential feature which necessarily precedes matter. This mind, however is not the mind of the God of the Bible, or any other sacred book.

    Years ago I read a book by Rupert Sheldrake dealing with the idea of morphogenetic fields and initially dismissed it. Now I'm thinking I dismissed this too soon. At least the recognition that the suggested materialistic mechanisms have failed to provide the needed organizing ability and forever cannot generate new information, but rather that information left alone dissipates is going in the proper direction.

    Never mind it will be rather difficult to test a nonmaterial explanation save by inference, but we're dealing with many things like this even now. Gravity, for one.

    This is rather long, but Rupert is an engaging speaker.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpudgs9ZTfg

  • maksym
    maksym

    How can anyone believe in a theory. It's just not scientific at all.

    The theory then becomes biased from the beginning and one sets out to prove their beliefs in said theory. If one remains neutral then the casual obverver remains neutral and one is focused on getting the correct answer.

    Science is meant to be unbiased and without beliefs. It is set forth to be neutral and empirical. Establishing a theory as fact of any kind is meant to be driven by empirical suport whether true or false, without belief, religion, or philosophy involved.

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    You've redefined faith so broadly that it becomes meaningless, binadub. I have not seen something evolve before my eyes, nor have I replicated all of the experiments of geneticists, and biologists, I have not gone an examined the fossils dug up by archeologists. This does not make evolution a matter of faith. If by that definition I believe evolution on faith, then I also believe in the pyramids on faith. I haven't seen them, I have only seen pictures. I take that the moon is outside on faith. I cannot see it right now, how can I be sure? But to define faith so broadly completely removes it from it's intended meaning. Faith that the moon is outside is not the same thing as faith that gods exist.

    This is just a pitiable attempt to put evolution on some equal footing of any other belief system no matter how inadequate that belief my be by comparison. If the facts and evidence cannot be argued against or it's simply too much trouble to learn enough to even begin to do so, just resort to a sort of epistimological nihilism where everything is a matter of faith. This denigrates the concept of faith moreso than anything else, and by reducto ad absurdum, it renders reality itself to a matter of faith.

    Go read some books on the history of math. "History of pi", "a tour of the calculus", or "the story of e." We have documents from egyptians that show what their level of math was. They didn't have algebra, they had only a primitive form of geometry, and their knowledge of "pi" was imprecise and was the result of measuring ropes looped into circles. Ancient math was not anywhere near what we have today, and like I said, there still exist tribes that don't have quantitative math systems even now. The pyramids aren't a wonder because the math is so complex, because it's not. It's primitive, it's modern middle to high school math at best. The wonder is that such a primitive people built it.

    Speciation is not a hypothesis, it is readily observed and reproduced in plants, fungi, and microbes. It would take you thirty seconds on google to look up a plethora of examples. It's been observed in animals. Do you even know what speciation is, or how it occurs? What the biological species concept is? I have my doubts that you do. The fact that you seem to think that maybe a finch somewhere in the galapogos maybe speciated or something, and that is all the evidence of speciation we have leads me to believe you have not done half as much research as you assert that you have.

    I'm not offended personally, I'm offended intellectually. If somebody wanted to come in here and claim the earth was six thousand years old, or that it was flat, I would be equally offended. When somebody says "Shouldn't we be able to predict the next human species?" my brain screams at my eyes for reading that. That sentence doesn't even mean anything. It's like reading "Shouldn't we be able to physics the number of Newtons in that super string?" It may include science words, but it's not even a coherent question.

    You can decry how defensive people get when you say grossly inaccurate things as if intellectual martyrdom somehow lends weight to the other side of the argument, but ignorance is not a virtue and egregiously inaccurate or misleading statements should be crucified for all to see.

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    Sheldrake is a quack. That is all.

  • ozbrad
    ozbrad

    Why is it so easy to believe a talking snake made a naked woman eat a piece of fruit but evolution is impossible?

  • glenster
    glenster

    See Science Daily Neanderthal:
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?type=news&keyword=neanderthal§ion=all&filename=&period=365&sort=relevance

    "Non-Africans Are Part Neanderthal, Genetic Research Shows

    "ScienceDaily (July 18, 2011) — Some of the human X chromosome originates from
    Neanderthals and is found exclusively in people outside Africa, according to an
    international team of researchers led by Damian Labuda of the Department of
    Pediatrics at the University of Montreal and the CHU Sainte-Justine Research
    Center. The research was published in the July issue of Molecular Biology and
    Evolution."
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110718085329.htm

    Also see

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110905160918.htm
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110825141635.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake#Scientific_reception
    "Sheldrake's ideas have often met with a hostile reception from some
    scientists, including accusations that he is engaged in pseudoscience."

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    I'm not a Sheldrake devotee, but then again, neither is Sheldrake.

    Perhaps you might consider reading this little book:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q_h5ZyjJWA

    I think you might come to appreciate that there is much in the way of this sort of thing in all human endeavors.

    There are no "scientists" just as there are no "christians", but there are people who at one point or another in a debatably greater or lesser degree either engage in the application of the scientific method as outlined and discussed at length by the philosopher Sir Carl Popper.

    There are also no "quacks", but it must be admitted that we find no standard as to what this might mean other than its use in a dismissive hand wave. Which itself is no argument. It's merely declaring victory and going home.

    Famous "Quacks" include:

    "

    • Ignac Semmelweis (1818–1865), was a Hungarianphysician described as the "savior of mothers". [ 44 ] Despite discovering the importance of what later became hand disinfection thus reducing the incidence of puerperal fever, his theory was regarded with suspicion by many fellow scientists, including his supervisor in the Vienna General Hospital and later his peers in Budapest as well. Since it happened several decades before the explanation of the germ theory of disease, many of Semmelweis' contemporaries viewed his theories as unscientific, baseless speculation not unlike of those of earlier decades. [ 45 ] He did not gain recognition in his life (for which he became rather bitter) nor his death: hardly any medical periodicals took note of his death, only a few people attended his funeral and the Hungarian Association of Physicians and Natural Scientist has failed to even mention his death. [ 46 ] He was vindicated only after the confirmation of the germ theory of disease by Pasteur and others.
    • Linus Pauling (1901–1994), a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, Pauling spent much of his later career arguing for the treatment of somatic and psychological diseases with orthomolecular medicine. One of his most famous claims was that the common cold could be cured with massive doses of vitamin C. Together with Ewan Cameron he wrote the 1979 book "Cancer and Vitamin C", which was again more popular with the public than the medical profession, which continued to regard claims about the effectiveness of vitamin C in treating or preventing cancer as quackery." [ 48 ] A biographer has discussed how controversial his views on megadoses of Vitamin C have been and that he was "still being called a 'fraud' and a 'quack' by opponents of his 'orthomolecular medicine'". [ 49 ]" - Wikipedia

    Now...

    If we could engineer a self-repliating biological system from scratch, then we might know one pathway for life-generation, however we've not been able to do that and the closer we investigate, the more we realize how phenomenal even the simplest form of life can be.

    The genetic code is aperiodic and not at all like the information we find inherent in crystal formation. The organization of a crystal is like the statement "Write three letters at a time, starting with the letter a and continuing to the letter z; then increment the starting letter and repeat the pattern until z is reached, then reset and start over."

    The information content is low, however when biological systems are examined, such as even a debatably alive something as a virus with 3,000 nucleotides which has no machinery for replication within itself, the binomial distribution of the sequences arrived at by any non-directional walk is beyond the random. Anything beyong something like 1 in 10 raised to the power of 50 is essentially zero chance.

    Now when life was supposedly born over 200 million years ago, we have a problem and that problem is that this is a finite period of time as well as the finite period of time the universe has been existence...

    Flipping a coin yields a 50/50 probability ever time, it has no memory, so when you look at a virus with 3,000 nucleotides read in a specific sequence and the suggestion that information not already present in something as simple as this can acquire this information over this finite period of time and retain and build upon it...well, it strikes me that the mechanisms of mutation and natural selection are simply not up to the task of generating the kind of novelty we see.

    We need something else to explain the origins of information, and it isn't the God of the bible or any other book, but the idea that "mind" may be the primary "field" which is prior to matter at least has some hope of yielding some more interesting dialogue.

    The cupboard of mother hubbard is empty as far as I can see, and science needs look outside the box.

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