evolution question

by outsmartthesystem 165 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • bohm
    bohm

    Flipping a coin yields a 50/50 probability ever time, it has no memory, so when you look at a virus with 3,000 nucleotides read in a specific sequence and the suggestion that information not already present in something as simple as this can acquire this information over this finite period of time and retain and build upon it...well, it strikes me that the mechanisms of mutation and natural selection are simply not up to the task of generating the kind of novelty we see.

    GB: But natural selection and mutation can create information/complexity which is readily observed. So you claim there is an experiment which demonstrate the rate of creation of information is to low for the allocated time?

  • glenster
    glenster

    The words Christian, quack, scientist, like others, can be used off-handedly
    or about people who've shown they generally fit the description. The little
    list was a list of ex-quacks--RS hasn't earned the "ex" yet. Some evidence
    about that from James Randi, who's familiar with the difference--"The
    Sheldrake Kerfluffle":
    http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/795-the-sheldrake-kerfluffle.html

    ****

    Let me briefly explain the grudge that Rupert Sheldrake has going against me.
    First an article entitled "James Randi," located at sheldrake.org:

    "The January 2000 issue of Dog World magazine included an article on a possi-
    ble sixth sense in dogs, which discussed some of my research. In this article
    Randi was quoted as saying that in relation to canine ESP, 'We at the JREF
    [James Randi Educational Foundation] have tested these claims. They fail.' No
    details were given of these tests."

    Clever. This implies that I was referring to the specific tests that Sheldrake
    claimed to have done. I was referring to general tests that the JREF has done
    over many years involving animals, particularly dogs. To have gone into details
    of all these tests would have been impractical, but a search of our site would
    have supplied him with all the details he could possibly wish. Alternately, I
    could have supplied them, if only he had issued a request. That's what we do at
    the JREF.

    Sheldrake continued:

    "Randi also claimed to have debunked one of my experiments with the dog
    Jaytee, a part of which was shown on television. Jaytee went to the window to
    wait for his owner when she set off to come home, but did not do so before she
    set off. In Dog World, Randi stated: 'Viewing the entire tape, we see that the
    dog responded to every car that drove by, and to every person who walked by.'
    This is simply not true, and Randi now admits that he has never seen the tape."

    Not true. A colleague of mine in Europe told me that he'd seen the tape re-
    cord, and that he and his colleagues presented a version of it to some students
    who were asked to record each time the dog was activated. The dog never stopped,
    reacting to passers-by in the street, cars, any unusual noise and any sort of
    distraction. The only portion of tape that I was able to see was the section
    that Sheldrake saw fit to publish, the limited sector that indicated -- to his
    selective gaze -- the point he wanted to prove. Dr. Sheldrake, may we see the
    entire video record, so that we may repeat that student evaluation with persons
    who are, in your view, qualified to see it? I promise that I'll stay behind in
    Florida, and I'll not put out those "negative vibes" that I'm sure you feel
    would affect the test. Or are those tapes now lost, or perhaps not available for
    legal reasons?

    In closing, I'll add: When I was in the UK a few years ago, I asked Sheldrake
    if I could test his wonder-dog, but I was told that the dog -- and its owners --
    didn't want me around. I think that explains a lot about how willing Sheldrake
    is to face real, independent, examination of his claims.

    - J.R.

    ****

    Maddox on Sheldrake
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maddox#The_Sheldrake_editorial_1981

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    Thank you all. That was information overload....but thank you.

    "Why is it so easy to believe a talking snake made a naked woman eat a piece of fruit but evolution is impossible?"

    I LOVE this question!

  • TD
    TD
    People who believe macro-evolution believe it on faith, not facts. If there are any proofs, I would very much like to know of even one.

    What is macro evolution?

  • glenster
    glenster

    "information overload"

    True. I wondered what the need for some side excursions was. Acceptance of evolution doesn't require atheism or parapsychology, but it does go against a literalist orthodox Abrahmic version.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    I know this is going to sound stupid, but I would like to ask: why can't we see spontaneous generation of life?

    Was this sort of thing common in order for life to come about? I understand you guys are discussing evolution, and that that doesn't necessarily deal with the origin of life, but ultimately it does. As one goes further back to the "basic" organisms that produced all these complex ones, one has to ask, where did they come from?

  • glenster
  • bohm
    bohm

    knowsnothing: The best answer we can give is we do not know.

    The early earth was very different from the way it is now, and it is far from understood what organic chemicals was avaliable. that make the question very difficult.

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    @glenster and bohm, thank you for your succint and honest answers.

  • Mickey mouse
    Mickey mouse

    I am trying again with The Blind Watchmaker but I have a feeling I am going to have to gain my understanding of evolution from someone other than Dawkins. He's too dogmatic for my liking.

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