cofty - DNA is meaningless without a "mind" to interpret what needs be done.
There is nothing in the chemistry which the laws of physics demands that when certain chemical sequences are present, certain structures should be built.
evolution question
by outsmartthesystem 165 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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cofty
There is nothing in the chemistry which the laws of physics demands that when certain chemical sequences are present, certain structures should be built.
Yes there absolutely is. At the most basic level chemistry is just a collection of oddly shaped lego bits with magnets. Its mechanics on a minature scale.
DNA is meaningless without a "mind" to interpret what needs be done.
This isn't even wrong
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cofty
This is something I wrote earlier on the JWS forum that illustrates my point, its based on The Greatest Show on Earth by Dawkins but its not a copy and paste, its in my own words.....
Proteins are chains of even smaller molecules, amino acids, which also fold themselves in highly determined ways. The amino-acid sequence is determined by the by the DNA code, each set of three letters (codon) results in a different one of twenty possible amino acids. The sequence of amino-acids twist and turn in specific ways like a necklace of curiously shaped magnets simply following the laws of chemistry and thermo-dynamics. The important point for evolution is that any mutation in the DNA will result in a different sequence of amino acids that will fold up in a different way to form a different protein molecule. If that consequence affects survival the changed gene will stand or fall in competition in the gene pool.
Protein molecules fold themselves up into their unique and distinctive shapes complete with subtle dents in their surface. It is these details that determine the proteins role as an enzyme, which is a catalyst.
So let’s look at the role of enzymes in the cells of the developing embryo.
The living cell is like a huge chemistry lab containing a many different chemicals. Unlike a lab though the chemicals are not stored in separate containers but all mixed up together, “as though a vandal...entered the lab, seized all the bottles on all the shelves and tipped them…into one great cauldron.” However the chemicals do not react with one another unless, and this is the whole point, an enzyme is present.
Catalysts speed up chemical reactions by as much as a billion or even a trillion times. Enzymes, which are protein catalysts are champions among enzymes because of their specificity.
Let’s take two chemicals which we will call substance A and substance B. These two molecules are happy to get together but in reality never do so. The reason is entirely mechanical in nature. The molecules can fit together like a key in a lock but as they spin around in the chemical soup inside a cell they just never meet up in the right way. What is needed is a chemical matchmaker. A specific enzyme has a precise shape on its surface that readily captures substance A and in such a way that it’s facing the right way to get it together with a passing molecule of B. Having done its job the enzyme leaves the newly formed molecule A-B to their life together while it floats on seeking new As and Bs it can introduce to each other.
A cell is therefore a versatile chemical factory that can produce a wide variety of different substances depending on which enzyme is present.
Now if you can follow the next paragraph you have understood the basics of how it all works –
The nucleus of every cell contains the entire set of genes or genome, with only a minority of genes turned on in any particular cell. The sequence of letters (ATCG) of the active genes is read off in groups of three as codons that code for specific amino acids. Like a necklace of oddly shaped magnets the amino acids determine the shape of the protein molecules that they form. The shape of the molecule determines the precisely shaped sockets that marry up the substances drifting around in the cell. For example a particular enzyme will cause a thyroid cell to produce thyroid hormones. Finally the chemical reactions that go on in a cell determine the way it is shaped and how it behaves and participates with other cells in the origami style interactions that form the various parts of the embryo. This leads to differences in the form and behaviour of adults which effects their success in survival and reproduction. This then feeds back on their survival in the gene pool of the genes that made the difference between success or failure in the first place.
AND THIS IS NATURAL SELECTION.
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gubberningbody
Cofty you aren't even close to understanding how any of this works.
The "code" is meaningless without the interpretation of "mind".
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cofty
gb - Where exactly are you getting this fantasy from?
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Caedes
GB,
Presumably you are talking about god when you say mind? Because presumably you aren't suggesting that chemistry works differently in living creatures?
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JonathanH
LOL. I read Gubberingbody's post and thought "great, I have to give some instruction on how transcription and translation works to put this down." Then I read a couple of posts and see Cofty spell it out step by step. He explains how what DNA is and how it goes from a series of nucleotides to a specific protien, and why that is important, and I think to mysefl "Fantastic, Cofty already did it." Then the hilarious response to this thought out and technical explanation is "You aren't even close to understanding how any of this works." LOLZ big fat hairy LOLZ.
Alright Gubberningbody, how about you explain Central Dogma of molecular biology to all of us biology neophytes? Tell us about the "Cell mind" or whatever nonsense concept you thought of in the shower one morning. Then (just to spoil the ending) I'm going to guffaw, say how nonsensical, inaccurate and baseless the assertion is, and then I will re-iteration the naturalistic process of Translation works. You will then no doubt either disappear from the thread or say that "we just don't get it." and then disappear from the thread. Would you like to start?
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gubberningbody
Does anyone understand that DNA is inert?
It doesn't "DO" anything.
RNA "reads" DNA.
The fact that there is a code that is read and interpreted to imply certain actions to be taken by cellular automata indicates that there is a "mind" which takes these codes to mean the same.
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Caedes
So GB,
Any particular reason you ignored my question?
You said to Cofty the following;
Cofty you aren't even close to understanding how any of this works.
Well, why don't you explain in detail how this "mind" controls DNA.
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JonathanH
Do you think vingegar has a mind? I mean baking soda doesn't do anything, but somehow when you add vinegar is just "knows" to bubble up. There must be some sort of vinegar intelligence. You're simply anthropomorphising a naturalistic chemical process. All you're asserting is "I don't know how this works, there must be some magic spirit mind doing it." That's no different from ancient people assuming their must be some intelligence dictating when it rains.
RNA doesn't "Read" DNA. An enzyme called RNA polymerase attaches to a "promoter" (a certain nucleotide sequence that attracts RNA polymerase) then based on the nucleotide sequence, a complimentary pairing of nucleotide sequences match up forming a strand of mRNA. This isn't magic, it's chemistry. DNA bases are made of Thymine, Adenine, Guanine and Cytosine. In an RNA strand they pair up with Adenine, Uracil, Cytosine and Guanine Respectively (A to U, T to A, G to C, and C to G), again, this step is not magic, it's chemistry just like the baking soda volcano. This mRNA strand is ejected into the cytoplasm where it "attaches" to an mRNA binding site on a ribosome. The sequence of nucleotide bases on the mRNA are grouped in threes, and these are known as "codons", floating around in the cytoplasm is tRNA which has a matching "anticodon" that chemically pairs with the codons.The tRNA has amino acids attached to it (again by chemistry, not magic), and as each anti-codon matches each codon it builds a string of amino acids. For instance the nucleotide sequence CUU (cytosine, Uracil, Uracil) matches up with an anticodon on a tRNA carrying the amino acid "Leucine." There are 21 amino acids, and depending on their sequence in a chain, they form different proteins and that (in a round about way) forms you and me.
At no point does RNA think of what to do with the DNA any more than the vinegar thinks of what to do with the DNA. It doesn't read anything, it doesn't decide anything, it's all just chemicals acting in deterministic and stochastic ways to go from DNA to RNA to Protein. Ignorance of this chemical process doesn't mean that RNA is "thinking" of what to do with DNA.
