That is very inaccurate. There was at least one highly successful effort to replicate the image on the "Shroud", using materials available to Medieval relic-forgers...
Years ago, I watched an experty actually demonstrate this. It's a fake.
What do you know and what do you THINK the Shroud of Turin is?
by Terry 57 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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AGuest
Sigh (slowly shaking head). Peace to you, all.
The shroud... and the image on it... may indeed be close to 2,000 years old (my Lord was put to death a little over 1981 years ago). It may have an image of some sort on it, although that it does was NOT a "natural" occurrence; rather, some shrouds actually carried depictions of their wearers. For the very same reason we put up photos of the deceased, today. It is not, however, my Lord... or his shroud. I will not expound on HOW I know this (you all know where I would go); rather, I will simply share WHAT I know of it (as a result of my asking many years ago).
During those days people were hired to MAKE such images on the burial "receptacle" of the deceased. If those who "know" bothered to think about it... they would recall that many burial "receptacles" (i.e., coffins, sarcophaguses, urns, etc.) had depictions of the deceased carved into and/or painted on them. The rich could afford wood or metal containers on which they had carved and/or painted the image of the deceased. This was done as far back as... wait for it... Egypt (think, King Tut). The poor, however, could only afford an image painted... or "stained"... on the cloth the body was wrapped in. They couldn't afford such opulent burial receptacles. My Lord was very poor.
In the flesh my Lord resided in a very small (tiny, by today's standards), diseased (to the point of oozing and losing flesh) body. His face was severely ravaged by leprosy. Which is why he often covered it. By the time they came to arrest him, he appeared SO "afflicted"... that some literally gasped and fell back when they saw him. In addition, he was in great pain when he died.
The figure on the shroud, however, depicts a man who, although dead, was of pretty sound flesh. And there are no stains... which there would have been had it been my Lord: stains from his illnesses... as well as stains from the oils, greases, and other items used to "prepare" his body. It depicts one who appears to be oeacefully sleeping. Which my Lord did (sleep), yes; however, the depiction is as if the man's death was merely the result of "natural" causes... and not the agonizing events that his flesh underwent prior to.
His robe WAS mentioned... because of the prophecy pertaining to it (the casting of lots over it); his burial shroud... not so much. By anyone. Understandably. Because there was nothing significant about it; it was merely a pile of cloths... that ONCE held the body of a dead man. Since that man was no longer dead... his shroud was of no importance to his followers. If it WERE his shroud (and I apologize but it's taking a lot for me to refrain from rolling my eyes, here)... and had his image on it... someone would have mentioned/made reference to it. For the very fact that his image WAS on it. It wasn't... on this or any other shroud.
So, what is this all about? Just another "golden calf," dear ones... for those who cannot walk by faith... but still walk by sight. It is something to "see"... so as to have [faith] in Christ... because they can't see him. Unfortunately, looking at it won't change a thing: they're still blind. Perhaps even more so just by means OF looking at/to it.
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA, who doesn't mean to "heave sighs," but... well... dang: c'mon, people... the walk is according to FAITH... NOT sight...
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PSacramento
In short, why would the disciples keep a "death shroud" of someone that was NOT dead?
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Band on the Run
It could be anyone who was crucified. My hunch is that the Vatican has reservations or they would allow more of it to be examined. I don't see where it increases anyone's faith. St. Helena found more loot for someone not a modern anthropoligist. A local church in the East Village, one of so many Eastern rite churches that abound there, had a relic of some saint's throat. A friend who was a devout Catholic asked the priest to have access to the relic. She claimed immediate healing when she saw the relic. Somehow I don't think I would have experienced healing.
The Shroud is fascinating. What would the Vatican ever do if it were proved a forgery. What does it prove, if true? Is there a known provenance as to how it reached Turin? My understanding is that it does not surface until the Middle Ages. One would think that bishops would vie for the pilgrimage trade it brings.
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tec
I don't think anything about the shroud of turin (didn't even know what it was before this thread), or any other religious relic.
Faith comes from the spirit, as Christ and God ARE spirit.
Peace,
Tammy
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Band on the Run
Thomas refused to believe. The Risen Christ showed Thomas his wounds. Jesus did not condemn him for having doubts. Rather, he went out his way to show visual, demonstrative proof. Thomas remained an important apostle. There is not only one way to faith. Jesus accomodated him. I hope Jesus would accomodate me. B/c blind faith is blind. Different personalities rely on different methods. There is not a cookie cutter way to respond to Christ.
Perhaps Jesus uses the tacky.
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AGuest
Faith comes from the spirit, as Christ and God ARE spirit.
Indeed, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!). Seeing as faith is a fruit of God's holy spirit, seems like there really is only one "Way" TO it: faith in Christ, the Way. Saddens me that many "think" they know... and so make all kinds of generic assertions regarding the Most Holy One of Israel. Unfortunately, many don't understand what faith IS... or who and what Christ is... but cling to the same old secular/religious understandings. Versus listening to... and teaching... what the Spirit himself taught... and teaches... about it.
Like JWs who think that attending 3-5 meetings a week is demonstrative of their faith, many think faith is some ritualistic, repetitious conduct that can be outwardly demonstrated by things like attending church, participating in field service, given sermons, etc.. It demonstrates faith in the WTBTS, perhaps, yes... or the doctrines of those who established such institutional ways of "worshipping" God... but certainly not faith in God and/or Christ.
Because that isn't what either "asks" of man. They both ask one thing: for a man to be found faithful, such faith being IN Christ, the Son. Not ABOUT him... but IN him. In what HE says was, is, and will be. What HE says to do/not do. A relic can't give you that. Like all other false idols, it cannot see, speak, walk, hear, etc. It can, perhaps, help bolster one's faith that Christ IS the Son of God (although, the chances that such an item is what it's claimed to be is slim to none)... but that is not the same as having faith IN Christ. The demons know he is the Son of God. The Adversary knows that he is the Son of God. Even some of his enemies (Judas) knew he was/is the Son of God. Didn't make any of these LISTEN to him... and put faith IN him... by putting faith in what he TOLD them.
The disciples/apostles also knew he was the Son of God; yet, even that didn't mean they had faith in him. Otherwise, they wouldn't have run and hidden when he was put to death (seeing as he told them that that would occur)... or doubted when he rose (which he also told them would occur). Given what they HAD seen... they should have been able to have faith... in what they HEARD: that he would die... and then raise himself up. They may have WANTED to have faith in that... but that didn't prove to be the case (and Thomas is a good example of that on an individual level, as well as Peter). Hard to do... when one walks by sight.
Which is what Thomas was doing. He said he would NOT believe... unless he saw the holes. Which were shown to him, so that he, too, would not be "lost." But we shouldn't be fooled by that act of mercy on our Lord's part toward HIM: he showed Thomas, yes, but then told him that those coming AFTER him (Thomas)... would be just as "happy" (i.e., receive the same reward)... even though they did NOT see... because THEIR faith was NOT in what they could see... but in what they do NOT see (with their eyes): Christ. A spirit.
Some make the mistake of thinking, "Well, he showed Thomas; why can't he show me?" Answer is easy: Thomas had already shown HIS faith by following Christ in the first place. He stuck with Christ even through his trial(s). Those who make such a demand usually haven't shown their faith... but are only "promising" to do so (which promise they most likely can't/won't fulfill) AFTER they are shown. They don't understand that the payment/reward comes AFTER the work has been done... not before.
Again, peace to you, dear one!
Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
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Band on the Run
The Garden of GEthsamane?
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dgp
Even if the shroud were authentic, that would only take us as far as knowing that a man was inside the shroud. It tells us nothing about who the man was, or whether he was divine, or anything. Whether the shroud is authentic or not is immaterial.
Someone says that is the shroud of Jesus. Is THIS PERSON telling the truth? How can we determine that from an analysis of the shroud?
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myelaine
dear AGuest...
you said: "Like JWs who think that attending 3-5 meetings a week is demonstrative of their faith, many think faith is some ritualistic, repetitious conduct that can be outwardly demonstrated by things like attending church, participating in field service, given sermons, etc.. It demonstrates faith in the WTBTS, perhaps, yes... or the doctrines of those who established such institutional ways of "worshipping" God... but certainly not faith in God and/or Christ. "...
regularily attending church and participating in a faith community produces discipline, motivation, fear/reverence, willingness, joy in communion/recognition of the Body, fidelity, regulation, and anticipation...and it is a great place of rest from labours! ...it most certainly does demonstrate something to God.
I'm thinking that your demon belphegor just doesn't like church because his intention is to promote strife, distrust, jealousy and dissatisfaction in relationships.
love michelle