What do you know and what do you THINK the Shroud of Turin is?

by Terry 57 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  AGuest

  regularily attending church and participating in a faith community produces discipline, motivation, fear/reverence, willingness, joy in communion/recognition of the Body, fidelity, regulation, and anticipation...

  So does "regularly" following, listening to, and being in union with Christ, Michelle. Which is actually cheaper and potentially has a greater reward: everlasting life.

  and it is a great place of rest from labours!

  So is Christ. Matthew 11:28-30

  ...it most certainly does demonstrate something to God.

  Yep, it does. Just not what you think it does. It does what the temple "church" and its features did when it was around... which Christ condemned. Interestingly, he didn't establish any church (as you mean that term) or religion after. Men wickedly did, though... which he said they would do.

  I'm thinking that your demon belphegor just doesn't like church because his intention is to promote strife, distrust, jealousy and dissatisfaction in relationships.

  Christ loves the church, blasphemer. He gave his life for it. The church that is his Body, the "temple" made up of PEOPLE... which exists wherever even TWO are gathered... IN HIS NAME... which name you do not even know or recognize... cannot even utter, apparently, but only blaspheme... and not the churches that are handmade by men... the congegrations of which are picked by man's designs... and not holy spirit.

  You need to go to [a] church, Michelle? Go to [a] church. DO you.

  love michelle

  Please... do your lies NEVER cease? Oh, wait... of course not: YOUR father (you know, the one who keeps trying to falsely pass himself off as an angel of [the] Light) won't allow it. Sad, that.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  cofty

  That last post sounded really nasty Shelby. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way.
• 

  sabastious

  regularily attending church and participating in a faith community produces discipline, motivation, fear/reverence, willingness, joy in communion/recognition of the Body, fidelity, regulation, and anticipation...and it is a great place of rest from labours! ...it most certainly does demonstrate something to God.

  Gathering together and creating ritual and hierarchy is not a demonstration for God, but for man. Gathering together and NOT creating ritual and hierarchy, in my opinion, would be a demontration of something positive to God because we have to work against our own grain to do it. We instinctively need to point to leaders that can "show us the way" and make us feel safe. But that only works for a time and always ends in delusionally following the leaders. At some point you trust someone, or some group, so much that you hand over your free will to them without even knowing it. Instead of thinking for yourself when a problem arises you think of what the group, or even a single person, would do, feel, act or think.

  -Sab
• 

  PSacramento

  Gathering together and creating ritual and hierarchy is not a demonstration for God, but for man. Gathering together and NOT creating ritual and hierarchy, in my opinion, would be a demontration of something positive to God because we have to work against our own grain to do it. We instinctively need to point to leaders that can "show us the way" and make us feel safe. But that only works for a time and always ends in delusionally following the leaders. At some point you trust someone, or some group, so much that you hand over your free will to them without even knowing it. Instead of thinking for yourself when a problem arises you think of what the group, or even a single person, would do, feel, act or think.

  Very well stated my friend.
• 

  AGuest

  That last post sounded really nasty Shelby.

  Yet, this ("I'm thinking that your demon belphegor...") didn't, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)? Interesting...

  I'm sure you didn't intend it that way.

  I intended to post... and did post... nothing more than the truth, dear one.

  You do realize that calling the Holy Spirit a demon IS blasphemy, perhaps even "unforgiveable"? I don't judge Michelle (although I count her among some of the silliest people I've ever had to deal with; however, silly isn't a crime in some circles, so...), because if I did, that judgment would be "bound" in "heaven." Not my call (praise JAH!)... and thank goodness that the Most Holy One of Israel shows mercy to whomever HE wishes to show it. Because most humans... including perhaps myself... are not so accommodating.

  I don't have to be "nice" to Michelle, dear P; I do, however, have to be honest... and as loving and "peaceable" as I possibly can. That's not ALWAYS "easy" for me to do when she outright blasphemes against the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit. Helps me understand, though, how my Lord felt, when, say, he observed the moneychangers "cheating" the people in the temple yard. Somethings just "take you there," you know? Vicious blasphemy, intended to hurt ME, but that in actuality slanders and profanes the Christ... tends to do that for me. Say what you want about ME... but be prepared for a truthful, forthright, even bold response... when you malign him while trying to take a "poke" at me. You may get spiritually "slapped". 'Cause I can only control so much for so long.

  Be glad it's just a slap... and not, say, the severance of an ear...

  Again, peace to you, my brother... and please, don't take issue with MY courage: I am loyal to Christ, not Michelle. Not by any stretch.

  YOUR servant... always... sister and fellow slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  cofty

  I find it difficult to understand how modern western christians can so blithely ignore the corporate nature of the 1st C. church.

  You can't pretend early christianity wasn't a religion with many of the features you decry. It did meet regularly for corporate worship and teaching. Individuals were accountable to each other and subject to appointed leaders and teachers.

  Your individualistic style, which is a feature of American society in general, would be unrecognisable to the early christians. You guys are religious you just prefer to redefine it to avoid the negative conotations.
• 

  AGuest

  Your individualistic style, which is a feature of American society in general, would be unrecognisable to the early christians.

  Perhaps, dear Cofty (peace and good health to you!). I would offer at least the following situations to counter, though, that it didn't MATTER what some thought/recognized/accepted... but only what CHRIST thought/recognized/accepted... then, and so even now:

  "Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, “What do you want?” or “Why are you talking with her?” John 4:27

  "'Teacher,' said John, 'we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.' ' Do not stop him,' [ Jesus] said. ' For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward. " Mark 9:38-41

  and... sublimely:

  "Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom [Jesus] loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against [Jesus] at the supper and had said, 'Lord, who is going to betray you?') When Peter saw him, he asked, 'Lord, what about him?' [Jesus] answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”John 21:20-22

  Those "from among the sons of Israel" are recorded to have taken literally this to heart:

  "These are those who did not defile themselves with women [the "Harlot/boisterious woman" and her "daughters", the adulteress sects of "christian" religion, made up of those who follow other "husbandly owners" rather than remaining CHASTE VIRGINS as to Christ!]... for they remained virgins."

  How did they do that?

  "They follow the Lamb wherever he goes."Revelation 14:4

  And nothing and no one else! Since that can't literally go where he did (and he told them that)... how then, do they follow HIM... "wherever" he GOES? By... LISTENING... to HIM. Otherwise, they have no way of even knowing WHERE HE IS! ("If THEY say, 'Here he is! or He is there'! DO NOT BELIEVE IT.")

  Folks run around accusing those who associate with the WTBTS of not reading their Bibles, dear one. Obviously, JWs aren't alone.

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  cofty

  Its a puzzle how you dismiss all of the bits of the bible that don't square with your personal "revelations" but quote other bits as if it is actual history.

  How do you pick and choose?
• 

  cyberjesus

  Its a rag... an old rag worhipped by superstitious people. its a waste of money (to preserve it and study it) and its a waste of life.

  This thread is demon possesd!
• 

  sabastious

  Your individualistic style, which is a feature of American society in general, would be unrecognisable to the early christians. You guys are religious you just prefer to redefine it to avoid the negative conotations.

  Religion without rituals and hierarchy sounds pretty nice to me. Win win. I personally feel that AGuest and PSac's approach to Christianity is more in line with what happened in the 1st century, but that's just my view. Paul, Peter and Barnabas were just the alpha male types and they were the beginnings of what has now ended up as a highly structured religious hierarchy. We even have people like Michelle defending that structure venomously. The best way to come to accurate knowledge, in my opinion, is through rigorous peer review. The second rituals and hierarchy come into place is the second peer review becomes impossible (because of bias) and therefore truth lost.

  Think of how the Alpha's viewed Timothy in their writings. They, just like the Watchtower, were creating a brand of which had their own personal criteria. Timothy met that criteria and therefore he was presented to the early congregations as a protege. It's not surprising that Jesus' original message of "Him and you" was lost rather quickly after he died.

  -Sab