Did the Apostles ALWAYS Consult the Scriptures?

by AGuest 30 Replies latest jw friends

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  AGuest

  To the Household of God, Israel... and those who go with... may you all have peace!

  As usual, there is the ongoing debate about the "value" of the Bible and wisdom in consulting IT to determine whether an "inspired" expression originates with God. You've seen me go back and forth with others on this but now I would like to ask you... as our Lord just asked me... a question that might make you consider this matter in another... shall we say... Light. The question our Lord asked me was:

  "What writings, child, did John consult to "test" the visions and events that were told and shown to HIM? What writings did he research so as to know that the angel I sent to him was FROM me and was showing him the TRUTH? Where were the things he saw... and heard... "written"?

  I started to respond, "Ummmm... Daniel, Lord?" but then remembered that although Daniel and John shared one similar vision (the Court and Judgment), the beasts, etc. that each saw were described quite differently.

  So, as our Lord asked ME... I am to now ask YOU to consider:

  How did John KNOW his revelation was from God... Christ... that the angel who presented it to him was from either... and how did HE "test" the revelation... and the "inspired" expressions given IN it?

  You don't have to respond. The point was not to provoke comments... but to possibly... HOPEFULLY... get you to consider that PERHAPS there's something you haven't been TOLD (by those who claim to KNOW)... or considered (based on what you think you know).

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and fellow slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  AGuest

  Oops... left something out (and was reminded, so):

  How did those who came after... who took John's revelation as valid... "test" that revelation? What scriptures/writings/verses did THEY consult/research to determine whether what John saw WAS true... and from whom? How did THEY know?

  Again, peace to you!

  Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

  SA
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  Band on the Run

  Academic reading (oh, No, how tragic!) suggests that Jesus' and the apostles' notion of scripture was loose. I can't recall every book but it is something like the Torah, Psalms (very influenced by the Psalms), the major prophets, such as Jeremiah, Isaiah, Daniel, and a minor one. The Jewish scriptures were not canonized until about the same time as the Christian ones. I always thought Jesus had a standard OT. Certainly Torah and the Psalms were crucial but the others would be more sacred scriptures valued by Jewish tradition than the way we think of scripture today.

  Since Christians even a short distance away often had differing scripture, I would not be surprised if Jews from different parts of Israel had access to varying sacred writings.

  Wisdom was never the main bulk of Jewish teaching, IIRC. Words were important to them. The Psalms were used as modern day Catholic and Anglican prayer books are used. The actual words and language flow were evidently important. Jesus is always directly quoting the Psalms rather than a brief reference to some concept. Word vs. Wisdom can co-exist well. I don't understand the dichotomy. It seems a very false one to me.

  I am addicted to Bible study books but I enjoy mysticism. When I was near death, I clung to a ritual of saying the Anglican Book of Common Prayer aloud and reading the Bible citations from the Daily Lectionary, then I meditated for about an hour. I used a very rote prayer used by the Eastern Church.
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  N.drew

  Discernment that is powered by intellectual capacity (understanding)

  diánoia (from 1223 /diá, "thoroughly, from side-to-side," which intensifies 3539 /noiéo, "to use the mind," from 3563 /noús, "mind") – properly, movement from one side (of an issue) to the other to reach balanced-conclusions; full-orbed reasoning (= critical thinking), i.e. dialecticalthinking that literally reaches "across to the other side" (of a matter).

  1271 /diánoia ("critical thinking"), literally "thorough reasoning," incorporates both sides of a matter to reach a meaningful (personal) conclusion. Such "full-breadth reasoning" is essential to loving (25 /agapáo) the Lord and our neighbor (see Mk 12:30). It is also the instrument of self-destruction when exercised without God's light and power (Lk 1:51; Eph 2:3, 4:18; Col 1:21).

  [1271 /diánoia (dianoia) is also used of "reasoning and speech between characters in ancient dramas" (LS; cf. Aristotle, Rh 1, 404). But 1271 (diánoia) works to a person's own undoing when it operates apart from the light of God's word (Eph 4:18).]

  Along with the ear to hear what the SPIRIT says.

  To have the understanding one must have known by examination the things concerning the Lord. http://concordances.org/greek/2045.htm

  seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 1 Peter 1:11

  No, the Apostles did not always consult the Scriptures. But for discernment to be effective they had to be familiar with them.

  That's how I see it (today).
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  AGuest

  Do you have a point that addresses the thread topic, dear BOTR (as always, peace to you!)? I'm not sure I can glean it from your comments. If so, can you clarify, please? Thank you... and, again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
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  Band on the Run

  God, give me the grace and strength to turn the other cheek. Now she is a faux moderator, too.
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  N.drew

  Band I understand you. (Seeing that we speak the same language, I should!). The way I read it is; they hardly could consult the scriptures always because they didn't have them.

  Shelby, knowledge puffs up. It's OK to be wrong. Please.
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  Band on the Run

  Why pose a faux question when you know the answer from your exclusive relationship with God? Unlike others, you need no feedback. Nathan Knorr, Freddie Franz, and Rutherford. (the Bible Students seem nice here so I won't add Russell.) Which Vatican Council established the infallibility of the pope? I read that about 1/3 of the cardinals stood up and walked out of the room.
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  AGuest

  Okaaaay... what did I post "wrong", here, dear N.Drew (peace to you)??

  The way I read it is; they hardly could consult the scriptures always because they didn't have them.

  First, I DIDN'T read it that way... and so kindly asked for clarification. Now that you've explained it (and assuming that IS what BOTR meant), I would say that of course not... but that that wasn't the gist of the post. I wasn't directed to ask if the Apostles always consulted the scriptures when the HAD them. Of COURSE they didn't/couldn't when they didn't have them. That would be given, IMHO. The question was... did they ALWAYS, particularly, for example, with regard to John and his revelation... and particularly the "scriptures" that many consider the BIBLE to be? What "scriptures," please tell... did John review in order to "test" the inspired expression he was given? What Prophet, book, letter, writing, Law, did HE read that said God would give a revelation to Christ, who would then present it to John... anyone... through an angel? What Prophet, book, letter, writing, Law did HE read that he could "test" what he saw and heard against?

  BOTR mentioned that not all of the writings were available, as well as not all were canonized in the "Bible." I AGREE. However, the question was, apparently, because there are those who think that ALL that was written IS contained in the Bible canon... and that is the ONLY place/source TO look for validation/verification/corroboration.

  I have posted on this site many, MANY times that my Lord has said to ME, so that I DON'T put my faith in the Bible, that:

  "ALL things I tell you... ARE written (but not necessarily in the Bible); however, not all things WRITTEN (including what's in the Bible) is not what I will tell you."

  So, tell me, please... what are you referring to? How did I state/say "wrong" with regard to BOTR??? And please, also, if you can... remember the admonition I was directed to give YOU earlier... as to where YOU might be led... if we disagreed. I wanted SO much to agree with you... just to keep the "peace." Just so as to not have yet another take offense because what they thought was true might not be. And... I am afraid... that now here we are... exactly where my Lord warned me we would be? Why? Do we truly HAVE to be here, dear N.Drew? Really?

  As for BOTR - it is my thread and so my privilege to try and keep on topic... at least in the first few posts or so. I simply asked if you had a point and that I didn't GET it, so could you please CLARIFY. Which shouldn't have been difficult to do. People... including you... ask me for clarification all the time. And I accommodate them, without taking offense. But... thank you... for your comments here... and your latest on the "Language" thread. I think, given both, I can safely move on from you now. Fool me once... and this makes about 4 times now. Let's stick a fork in this "cake," girl... once and for all.

  Peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
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  AGuest

  Why pose a faux question when you know the answer from your exclusive relationship with God?

  You assume I ask him as to your comments?? Please... I asked you... and most kindly. If you can't explain, don't take false offense and pretend like someone's done you some harm.

  Unlike others, you need no feedback.

  If I didn't I wouldn't have asked. I was upfront and forthright. The only playing stupid games here is you. I truly did not have a CLUE as to what you were implying/insinuating/hinting at. I don't speak your "languaged," unlike perhaps dear N.Drew. I acknowledged that I didn't get what you meant... and asked for clarification.

  I have grown seriously tired of you, though. Seriously. I no longer care what you say... or what you think. Truly. I will ask my Lord for forgiveness but I am simply unable to rise above, right now. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe not. But I really must be done with you... because now MY life is at stake. And you just aren't worth it to me.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA