Who Did The Early Church Call Upon? Jesus or Jehovah?

by JCISGOD98 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    The Watchtower writers like to say the reluctance of Jews to pronounced the name of god was due to SUPERSTITION.

    That's a load of crap. ALL RELIGION including the Watchtower's version is, strictly speaking, SUPERSTITION.

    The refusal to accept blood transfusions based on something reportedly said in Jerusalem two thousand years ago is nothing less than fanatial SUPERSTITION.

    Definition of SUPERSTITION

    1 a: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b: an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God 2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary

    By the time of the Talmud, it was customary to substitute Names for God. There were rabbis who asserted that any person who pronounced the Tetragrammaton (instead of substituting) had no place in the World to Come and should be put to death.

    The use of Adonai or Ha-Shem was used instead. It is not customary for any Jews to pronounce ANY of God's many Names unless it is in a strict prayer or study context. After the destruction of the Temple in 66 c.e. the prohibition fell into disuse. The correct pronunciation of YHVH was passed down for many generations. But, the reluctance to use it caused it's actual sound to fall into obscurity.

    My former wife and my children are Jews. I've spent many hours in conversation with different Rabbis. The more "devout" the Jew the more likely they are to write g*d. Orthodox rabbinical students won't write even that on any medium where you can erase it afterward. Especially a computer screen.

    The first three centuries c.e. was an intense time of upheaval in Judaism with internal forces and external forces grinding away with sectarian violence and competing political strategies vs Roman overlords.

    The Jesus story was an oral transmission of a sect that went viral and competed with traditional Judaism. Jewish teaching was predominantly oral. Jesus wrote nothing. The record we have today of what was purportedly said is an imaginary reconstruction from oral traditions.

    The conflicts Jesus had with his own religious leaders are a part of that story. The Early Church was not as monolithic as present christianity might like to think. For the first three hundred years the most devout christians could not even agree on the Nature of Jesus as man or deity.

    Firmly establishing anything from these first three hundred years would have to rest on traditions, later collation of word of mouth reports and such. The Romans destroyed temple records. Christianized pagans had their own, often anti-semitic, versions of who and what Jews were and did.

    I challenge anybody to answer this question: Why would a name as important to pronounce as JEHOVAH'S WITNESESS claim YHVH is- become lost in the first place? If god used supernatural means to supposedly preserve the bible (I contend He did NOT) wouldn't that apply to His Name as well?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Constatnine's Sword, a well written book about antisemitism and the church, stressed many times that Christians hijacked the Old Testament. Every weird slight reference became a prophecy that only Jesus fulfilled. Not knowing much about Judaism besides what the Witnesses asserted, I was convinced that the OT had no merit on its own. It was all code to prophecy Jesus. Jews must have no scruples to not convert b/c the prphecy was so obvious.

    Well, that was antisemitic. Ehrman writes that Christians only kept the OT to impress potential converts with how ancient and respected this otherwise late comer was. The key turning point for me was Psalm 23. The references to Jesus were so apparent, IMO. I came upon a statement that Jews see no prophecy. I turned to Encyclopedia Judaica to research it. Psalm 23 was written for present conditions completely. Every oh so Christian has a better explanation in what was then present Judaism. The text may be identical but the interpretations are wildly different.

    Jews have the OT. They should be allowed to interpet it for themselves just as Christians alter the meaning for their purposes.

    A Jewish sect is thrown out of Judaism for extreme heresy. Gentiles are attracted to it. Jewish concepts of God fade to Greek concepts of God.

  • designs
    designs

    Terry, Band- excellent.

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    The overall point of the OP may be correct, however it said :

    "Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Ananias was speaking with Jehovah the Father in verses [Acts 9]10 through 16. The next verse reveals who Ananias was speaking with".

    I had always thought that Jesus sent him and the publication "Bearing Thorough Witness About God's Kingdom" 2009 says on page 62:

    "10 Jesus did not reprove Ananias for expressing his concern. However, Jesus did provide him with clear direction. And He dignified him by telling him the reason why He wanted him to perform this unusual task. Jesus said of Saul: “This man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. For I shall show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.” (Acts 9:15, 16) Ananias promptly obeyed Jesus. He sought out the persecutor Saul and said to him: “Saul, brother, the Lord, the Jesus that appeared to you on the road over which you were coming, has sent me forth, in order that you may recover sight and be filled with holy spirit.”—Acts 9:17."

    Par 12 " Ananias was successful because he trusted Jesus and he viewed Saul as his brother"

    So "present truth" a la J W's is certainly that Jesus sent Ananias to Saul.....interestingly, I thought, they used a capital H for He in reference to Jesus. I thought that signified God???????????

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The Jews who produced and used this manuscript of the Bible in Greek dating from the first century BC clearly pronounced the divine name.

    http://www.lectio.unibe.ch/05_2/troyer_names_of_god.htm#bild11

    Substituting different titles for God goes back a long way of course, but evidence for the idea that pronouncing the divine name was generally prohibited in Jesus' time is not as secure as many make out.

    http://www.lectio.unibe.ch/05_2/troyer_names_of_god.htm

  • bioflex
    bioflex

    @Terry : I challenge anybody to answer this question: Why would a name as important to pronounce as JEHOVAH'S WITNESESS claim YHVH is- become lost in the first place? If god used supernatural means to supposedly preserve the bible (I contend He did NOT) wouldn't that apply to His Name as well?

    Acts 1:12 (KJV) - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Hebrew 12: 2 (KJV) - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Christianity is all about salvation through Jesus only, the JW's are just as deluded as the catholic church. They are not christian.

    That's a load of crap. ALL RELIGION including the Watchtower's version is, strictly speaking, SUPERSTITION.

    This is where you err, for someone who thinks all magic is trickery i get the picture. There is nothing like superstition in christianity. Unlike you we believe there is a spiritual aspect to the world we live in, and not just christians do.

    Perhaps there are ways by which you can experience said spirituality, then you would understand. JW's dont have a clue about spirituality too, that is why they are so messed up.

    And saying the calling of the divine name was superstition is insane.

    Exodus 20: 7(KJV)- Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

    This and other reasons, like how the Isrealites had to go throught the priest with their petitions and request to the Lord so they had limited use of the name. And they were thoroughly knowledgable about the result of messing with the name.

  • Terry
    Terry

    That's a load of crap. ALL RELIGION including the Watchtower's version is, strictly speaking, SUPERSTITION.

    This is where you err, for someone who thinks all magic is trickery i get the picture. There is nothing like superstition in christianity. Unlike you we believe there is a spiritual aspect to the world we live in, and not just christians do.

    There is nothing like superstition in christianity? Wow.

    superstitiousLook up superstitious at Dictionary.com
    late 14c., from O.Fr. superstitieux , from L. superstitiosus , from superstitionem (nom. superstitio ) "prophecy, soothsaying, excessive fear of the gods," perhaps originally "state of religious exaltation,"

    Perhaps there are ways by which you can experience said spirituality, then you would understand. JW's dont have a clue about spirituality too, that is why they are so messed up.

    Let's be very honest with each other--and ourselves. What is factual and true conforms to reality. We know by testing for contradiction between our ideas and the real world. Christianity and spirituality reside in an invisible domain free from testing. It cannot be measured, quantified, experimented upon or...frankly: PROVED. This meets my understanding of what Superstition is all about: the unprovable assertion of higher beings and forces invisible and subject to opinion.

    And saying the calling of the divine name was superstition is insane.

    Let's be accurate about what I am saying. All religions which deal with invisible worlds, transparent beings, awesome unmeasurable forces and untestable assertions are superstition. But, it is the Watchtower Society who claim that NOT PRONOUNCING "Jehovah" out loud by Jews would be because they were superstitious. JW's are every bit as superstitious since their playground is imaginary as well.

    Exodus 20: 7(KJV)- Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

    Which would be a practical reason to NOT say Jehovah's name out loud for FEAR OF BEING STONED TO DEATH if some goofy idiot accuses you of misusing it! That is not superstitious---it is ass saving practicality.

    This and other reasons, like how the Isrealites had to go throught the priest with their petitions and request to the Lord so they had limited use of the name. And they were thoroughly knowledgable about the result of messing with the name.

    Okay.

    Fairies, elves, orcs, unicorns, ghosts, devils and angels are unprovable assertions within a particular domain. If you want to regard belief in them as "spiritual" I'm okay with that. But, if you expect me to put such a domain on the SAME LEVEL as provable non-contradictory reality---I can't do so with intellectual honesty.

  • designs
    designs

    bio- Your saying 'JWs don't have a clue about spirituality' shows such hubris, what are you trying to do Out-Tebow Tebow in the End Zone Also your comment about Jews needing to go through the Priests, a little 101 on Judaism- Look up Jewish Prayers, the Daily blessings said by Jews, the Baruch Attah's, its all about a one on one commune with God.

  • Terry
    Terry

    As I have mentioned in the past, in my opinion, SPIRITUALITY is a "stolen concept".

    Religion is when people are bound together by common belief or doctrine in the worship of god. Spirituality empties Religion of the binding and the doctrine while trying to steal the emotion toward god. Spirituality is empty of meaning as a consequence by faking the connection.

    Whim follows the momentary feeling but living by whim is chaos. What is it we worship if we make our own god our own way?

    The Early Christian Church emptied Judaism of its historicity, law, justice and community by substituting the chaos of "grace" which was a God of Whim.

    Justice was no longer "getting what you deserve" because Grace was "undeserved."

    On what basis was this religion?

    The arguments over right-practice continued unabated until the strong arm of Rome under a faux-christian emperor decreed what WAS and what was NOT.

    Jehovah had been a destroyer and a player of favorites. Jesus was Prince of Peace and available to all.

    This is a hijacking of great magnitude. No wonder there was controversy!

    One religion was all rules and the other had no enforceable ones at all!

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Terry, I disagree with you. Whim, hunches, guts - are good measurements of what to trust. Perhaps not by themselves. Secular people employ them, too. Personally, I find your antireligion fervor lets you go over a line that is usally well reasoned. Secularism is responsible for bad things and so is religion.

    I would prefer to call it the human condition. Stalin, Mao were not citadels of reason b/c they purged religion. This secular/religious battle is spurious. An accurate reading would be that religion has brought great pain to humankind, revolting hypocrisy but also soaring images,s comfort, knowledge. not to mention fine art. Religion nurtured civilization. If it were not for isolated communities monks off Ireland keeping classical learning alive, it may have been lost with the barbarian invasions.

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