Who Did The Early Church Call Upon? Jesus or Jehovah?

by JCISGOD98 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Terry, I disagree with you. Whim, hunches, guts - are good measurements of what to trust. Perhaps not by themselves. Secular people employ them, too.

    A "whim" has no rational reason. Humans are reasoning creatures at our best. If we simply "feel" and act-- how do we differ from beasts? Obe wan Kenobe is a mystic and the mysterious "force" guides him. This isn't knowledge, science or an authentic foundation on which to act. The chaos of anarchy is men acting on whim without rule of law.

    Religion and secularity are neither good nor bad. It is with reason, rule of law and the agreement of thinking men are bound by common weal.

    Personally, I find your antireligion fervor lets you go over a line that is usally well reasoned. Secularism is responsible for bad things and so is religion.

    The evil of both the secular and the religious destroyers comes from their un-named "authority" to do as they wish. Their "righteous whim" or zeal for god on the one hand and "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" by secular tyrants are simply a disguise. They want to hold you in their power and make you do what they want. Obedience and money is the price you pay. Oh--but, don't bother asking questions.

    I would prefer to call it the human condition. Stalin, Mao were not citadels of reason b/c they purged religion. This secular/religious battle is spurious. An accurate reading would be that religion has brought great pain to humankind, revolting hypocrisy but also soaring images,s comfort, knowledge. not to mention fine art. Religion nurtured civilization. If it were not for isolated communities monks off Ireland keeping classical learning alive, it may have been lost with the barbarian invasions.

    Stalin and Mao wanted the unthinking obedience for themselves which religion had bound people by until their arrival. What they purged was RIVALS.

    Mussolini kept the trains running on time. Should the Italians have been grateful that he "nurtured civilization"? Hitler freed the indigenous Germans from the tyranny of Jewish businessmen and the burden of the Versailles Treaty.

    All monsters of tyranny are only working "for" their subjects in some mysterious and noble grandiosity.

    The Communists offered the Russians, under the Czar, something for everybody equally. So the people were led to believe. So, the Czar and his family were brutally murdered and tossed down a well! They put it to a vote. The Majority lost and the Minority won. How? They changed the names of the parties! It always ends the same with some sort of Priesthood or Dictator or Governing nuisance controlling your life for some greater cause!

    For thousands of years "enlightened" religious cells preserved books by copying and decorating them while the church they served taxed the people to death, kept them ignorant and illiterate and sold them tickets to heaven.

    The man or woman who cannot build a good life by THINKING their OWN thoughts for their own good is helpless before the smooth promises of mystics, clerics, Tyrants and magicians who dazzle them with empty bromides.

    It sounds good. It gives you hope. You don't have to die. Hey--let's go for it!

    You end up with a Pope, Pancho Villa, Juan Peron, Fidel Castro or Sadaam Hussein. When your tyrant dies you weep in the streets.....or else!

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Terry...

    you said: "The Early Christian Church emptied Judaism of its historicity, law, justice and community by substituting the chaos of "grace" which was a God of Whim."... "Justice was no longer "getting what you deserve" because Grace was "undeserved.""...

    paul instructed the church to not let the grace of God give excuse for licentious behaviour and he also called for removal of people from the midst of the church who did not repent of their ways. the historic RCC tried to bring purity to the church with their emphasis on the vengence of God toward sinners (they made it personal, not corporate)...these measures don't appear to me to be anything like the cheap grace that is preached in some of today's protestant churches.

    dear Band on the Run...

    you said: "Terry, I disagree with you. Whim, hunches, guts - are good measurements of what to trust."...I see a reference to the intention of keeping of the OT law in these two scriptures as compared to subjective "whim, hunches, guts"...matthew 11:7...revelation 11:1

    love michelle

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    myelaine, I respect your views. The problem is I strongly reject using isolated scripture as a test of anything that is doctrinal or admonishes a lifestyle.

    I respect Carl Jung's view of archetypes. The problem is that I only have Jungian dreams if I read a lot of Jung. Two friends of mind see Jungian therapists. I wish I could be a fly on the wall b/c I don't see practical application of his theories. I respect artists and creativity b/c I am overly rational.

    I read a tome on antisemitism and how Christians appropriated the OT to punish Jews. My personal belief is that Jesus died an observant Jew. As the church developed, OT concerns and NT ones would meld for a while. I should not be writing OT and NT. One of my insights is that the Torah, Psalms, etc. were not abrogated by Christ. Jews have a right to say these scriptures do not prophesy Jesus at all. The correct terms should be Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I believe the WTS used those terms in my day. When I read Psalm 23 now, I see the Jewish version about a trip to the Temple and the Christian revision that Jesus is prophesied. I try to be conscious of what values I am imposing on the material.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Band on the Run...

    I could site more scriptures regarding purity and asceticism...more precise scriptures than still don't hinge on "gut feelings, whim and hunch"...

    love michelle

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    anyway...

    in keeping with His mediatorial role, I would say that the early church called on Jesus as He is the preeminent "keeper of the law" and they had placed their eternal fate in His hands.

    love michelle

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Acts 4:10-12

    English Standard Version (ESV)

    10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
    Romans 10:9-13

    English Standard Version (ESV)

    9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek;for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    Matthew 28:19

    English Standard Version (ESV)

    19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Blessings in the name above every other name, Stephen
  • designs
    designs

    Stephen- Romans makes one of the most slanderous statements against the Jewish people the result of which caused the murder of millions and millions of Jews. It is shameful that a Group, Believers in Jesus of Nazareth, have wholeheartedly endorsed this genocidal statement.

    The amount of contradictions and hate speech in the New Testament are mind boggleing.

  • JCISGOD98
    JCISGOD98

    I think Acts is very clear. The early church called upon Jesus for everything, healing, confessed his name as Lord, accepted Him as Savior, accepted Him as KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS etc. etc.

    You know, my question for Jehovah's Witness is, if the early church did not believe Jesus Christ is God and they didn't worship Him as God, why give Jesus all the Titles of God and Attributes? Plus, titles that are exclusive to God.

    That's like saying, I can fix the plumbling in your house. I am a plumbler but I am not The Plumbler. I am a mighty plumbler but I am not the Almighty Pumbler. I can do everything an Almighty Plumber can do. I can replace the pipes in your house, build new pipes, install a toliet, bath tub etc.

    JWs claim Jesus is a savior but not THE SAVIOR. Jesus is a King of Kings but not THE KING OF KINGS. Give me a break man!!!!

    If Jesus is not God, the Church is guilty for worshiping a created being (which Jehovah's Witness believe), guilty for worshiping an a god!

    Take a look at this chart below. You should print this chart. Verses shaded in Blue are exclusive titles of God that should be given to a create being. It belongs to an eternal being.....GOD!!!!!

    TITLES AND IDENTIFICATIONS

    OF GOD

    THE GOD OF

    THE OLD TESTAMENT

    (YAHWEH)

    THE WORD OF GOD

    JESUS CHRIST

    (YESHUA)

    Who is the Everlasting One?

    ¨ Psalm 90:2

    ¨ Mic.5:2

    Who is the First and Last?

    ¨Isaiah 44:6

    ¨Revelation 1:17-18

    Who Fills All Things?

    ¨ Jer.23:24

    ¨ Eph 4:10

    Who is Always with Us?

    ¨ Duet.31:8

    ¨ Mat.28:20

    Who is the Same and Doesn’t Change?

    ¨ Malachi 3:6

    ¨ Heb 13:8

    Who is the Mighty God?

    ¨Duet. 10:17 ¨Neh.9:32 ¨Job 36:5 ¨Ps.24:8 ¨Isa.10:21 ¨Jer.10:6 ¨Zep.3:17

    ¨Isaiah 9:6

    Who is the Almighty God?

    ¨Gen.17:1

    ¨Revelation 1:7-8

    Who is the Holy One?

    ¨ Isaiah 43:3

    ¨ Acts 3:14

    Who is Without Sin?

    ¨ Deut.32:4

    ¨ Heb.4:15

    Who Created all Things by Himself and for Himself?

    ¨Proverbs 16:4 ¨Isaiah 44:24

    ¨Col.. 1:16

    To Whom does All Things Consists?

    ¨Neh.9:6

    ¨Col.1:17

    Whose Kingdom is Eternal His Dominion is everlasting?

    ¨ Psalms 145:13

    ¨ Daniel 7:14 ¨ 2Pet.1:11

    Who Knows searches our Hearts?

    ¨1King 8:39

    ¨Revelation 2:23

    Who is Lord of All?

    ¨Psalms 103:19

    ¨Acts 10:36

    Who Will be King Over all the earth and Who will This One Lord Be?

    ¨Zech. 14:9

    ¨1Cor.8:6

    Who is The Eternal King?

    ¨ Psalms 10:16

    ¨ 1Tim.1:17 ¨ Dan.7:14

    Whose Name is Above ALL?

    ¨Psalm 83:18

    ¨Phil 2:9 ¨Col 1:18-That in all things He might have the

    Preeminence.

    Whose Name do we call upon?

    ¨ Isaiah 12:4

    ¨ 1Cor 1:2

    Whose Name will be called upon and He will not answer because of rebellion?

    ¨ Psalms 18:41 ¨ Jer 11:11

    ¨ Mic 3:4 ¨ Zech 7:13

    ¨ Proverbs 1:28 –Wisdom speaking who is Jesus Christ ¨ Mat 25:10-12

    Whose Wrath is Coming upon the Earth?

    ¨ Romans 2:5

    ¨ Revelation 6:16;17

    Who is Coming with His Reward?

    ¨ Isaiah 40:10

    ¨ Rev.22:12;15

    Who is Going to Render to every Man According to his Work?

    ¨ Psalms 62:12

    ¨ Rev.22:12

    Who is The True God?

    ¨John 17:3

    1John5:20

    To Whom do we Cleave and Abide In and in Whom is the Fruit Found?

    ¨ Duet.10:20-The Lord Thy God…to Him thou shall Cleave.” ¨ Hosea 14:8-“From me is thy fruit found.”

    ¨ John 15:4;5-“Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself except is abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Without me ye can do nothing.”

    To Whom do we Put Our Hope In?

    ¨ Psalms 39:7

    ¨ 1Tim.1:1

    Who Gathers Us and Covers Us with His Feathers?

    ¨ Psalms 91:4

    ¨ Mat.23:37

    Who is The One and Only Saviour and There is No Other?

    ¨Isaiah 43:11

    ¨Acts 4:12

    Who is Our Redeemer?

    ¨ Psalms 130:7:8

    ¨ Titus 2:13;14; Isaiah 44:6

    Who Will Abolish Death?

    ¨ Isaiah 25:8

    ¨ 2Tim.1:10

    Who Blots Out our Sins?

    ¨ Isaiah 43:25

    ¨ 1John1:7

    Who Forgives Us of Sin?

    ¨ Exod.34:7

    ¨ Mark 2:5

    Who Calms the Storms?

    ¨ Psalms 107:29

    ¨ Mat.8:26

    Who will pour out His His Spirit?

    ¨ Joel 2:28-“I Will Pour Out My Spirit.” ¨ Isaiah 48:16-“The Lord God and His Spirit.” ¨ Matt.10:20-“The Spirit of Your Father.”

    ¨Proverbs 1:23 – Wisdom speaking who is Jesus Christ. ¨ John 16:7-“I will send the Comforter unto you.” ¨ Rom.8:9-“-The Spirit of Christ.” ¨ Gal.4:6-“The Spirit of his Son.” ¨ Acts 2:33-“He poured out the Spirit.”

    Who is Our Husband?

    ¨ Isaiah 54:5

    ¨ John 3:29 ¨ Rev.21:9

    By Whose Grace Are We Saved?

    ¨ Titus 2:11

    ¨ Acts 15:11

    Who is the One Shepherd that Feeds His Flock and Leads Them to the Fountain of Living Water?

    ¨ Ezek.34:15

    ¨ Psalms 23:1;3

    ¨ John 10:14;16 ¨ Rev.7:17

    ¨ 1Peter2:25

    Who Seeks What was Lost?

    ¨ Ezek.34:16

    ¨ Luke 19:10

    Who Loves Us and Disciplines Us?

    ¨ Proverbs 3:12

    ¨ Rev.3:19

    Who is Preparing a City For Us?

    ¨ Heb.11:16

    ¨ John 14:2

    In Whose Name Are We Suppose to Walk In?

    ¨Micah 4:5

    ¨Col .3:17

    Who is the All and In All?

    ¨ 1Cor.15:28

    ¨ Col 3:11

    To Whom Be the Glory Forever?

    ¨ Gal 1:4;5

    ¨ 2Pet.3:18 ¨ Rev 1:5-6

    Who Gets Credit and Praises For Creation?

    ¨ Psalms 102:25-27-King David gives praises and credit to his Lord God.

    ¨ Heb 1:10-12-Paul the Apostle applies this verse to Jesus and states The Father gives credit and praises to Jesus for creation. The Father addresses Jesus as Lord.

    Whose Glory did Isaiah The Prophet Saw?

    ¨ Isaiah 6:1-3-Isaiah saw Yahweh sitting in his throne.

    ¨ John 12:40-42-John said, Isaiah saw Jesus’ glory sitting on the throne.

    To Whom is Worship ascribed?

    ¨ Exodus 23:24 ¨ Psalms 29:2; 96:6

    ¨ Mat. 2:11 – The 3 kings from the east worshipped Jesus. ¨ Mat. 14:33; 28:9;17 Luke 24:52 – The apostles worshipped Jesus. ¨ John 9:38 – The blind man worshipped Jesus.

    Who is worthy to receive power, glory, honor, blessing, wisdom and strength?

    ¨Rev. 4:11; 7:12

    ¨Rev. 5:12.

    To Whom do we give thanks to?

    ¨ 2Sam 22:50 ¨ 1 Chron 16:8 ¨ Ps 97:12

    ¨ 1 Tim 1:12

    Whom do we sing songs of Praises?

    ¨Exodus 15:1; 15:21, ¨Judges 5:3, ¨Psalms 9:2

    ¨Rev. 5:8-10 – Four living creatures and twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb and they sang a new song “You are Worthy to take the scrolls and to open its seals…” ¨Rev. 15:3 – The song of Moses and the song of the Lamb.

    To Whom do we Sing a New Song?

    ¨ Psalms 96:1

    ¨ Rev. 5:8-10 – Four living creatures and twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb and they sang a new song “You are Worthy to take the scrolls and to open its seals…” ¨Rev. 15:3 - The song of Moses which is the first song recorded in the bible (Exodus 15:1) sung to God is sung to Jesus Christ.

    To whom will the Nations go before and Worship?

    ¨ Psalms 86:9 – All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee.

    ¨ Daniel 7:14 – Son of Man was given dominion, glory and sovereign power. All the people, nation and language worshipped Him. Zech. 14:16 – Year after year the Kings of the earth will visit Jerusalem to Worship the King --- The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

    Whose Glory will The Whole Earth be Filled with?

    ¨ Isa. 6:3

    ¨ Rev. 21:23-24

    Who got pierced and will be looked upon?

    ¨ Zech. 12:10 – They will look upon me, whom they have pierced.

    ¨ John 19:34;37 ¨ Rev. 1:7

    Who was priced for Thirty silver coins?

    ¨ Zech. 11:12

    ¨ Mat. 26:15

    Who is The Stone, which the builders rejected, and Has Become the Chief Cornerstone?

    ¨ Psalms 118:22

    ¨ Acts 4:11

    Who will Open His Mouth in Parables?

    ¨ Ps 78:2

    ¨ Mat. 13:35

    Let every creature that has breath praise who?

    ¨ Ps 150:6

    ¨ Rev 5:13

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    <<Whose Name Was The Early Church Calling Upon? Jesus or Jehovah?>>

    Well in the Old Testament it is clear who people called upon:

    And there was also a son born to Seth, and he called his name Enos. Then men began to call upon the name of Jehovah. Gen.4:26

    After Pentecost we see all Christians calling on a different name:

    Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:: I Cor. 1:2

    Jesus himself never addressed His Father by the name Jehovah in scripture...neither did any of the disciples.

  • designs
    designs

    Are Christians as superstitious about the use of the English name Jesus as we were with Jehovah. If you yelled 'Jesus' in a crowd back in 60AD no one would turn around but the modern Evangelicals 'must' use it out of superstitious fear (particularly for Touch Downs and Home Runs).

    JCI- Think about your list being completely irrelevant, here is a recommendation Read the Dead Sea Scroll 11Q13 and you will understand one of the Jewish sect's use of Divine perogatives on a creature.

    "The Church' exactly, a group of Bishops inventing a new religion, think about that. That actually should be 'a group of thieving, conniving, murderous, anti-semitic Bishops inventing a new religion'. And you fell for it.

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