by AGuest 212 Replies latest jw friends
The hard question came from BTS early in this thread. Pauls restriction on women was based on his understanding of Genesis and his view that women were inferior from men from the beginninng. You waffled something about the question above but it was all obfuscation.
but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression.
The hard question came from BTS early in this thread. Pauls restriction on women was based on his understanding of Genesis and his view that women were inferior from men from the beginninng. You waffled something about the question above but it was all obfuscation.
You mean this, dear one (peace!)?
"Doesn't seem that Paul was addressing issues regarding Roman culture here, was he?"
Goodness, I thought I answered that ad nauseum: he wasn't addressing Roman culture; he was addressing JEWISH culture. The christians were at greatest danger from the Jews... who would hand them over, if not kill them personally. Pregnant women, however, were given special dispensation due to the Law. My reference to the Roman culture was with regard to Paul's restriction of women from speaking publicly. Dear BTS (peace to you!) made the reference to Roman culture for the verse in question; I did not. I posted:
On previous occasions I've shared with you how Paul's admonitionhad nothing to do with the [Hebrew] Law (as to so restricting women), but with theRoman law at the time. Women speaking in public or showing authority over men was a crime... and grounds for arrest, even death.
And I posted information to support how Roman women were viewed... and restricted... after dear BTS objected and posted as to Roman women being priestesses, etc. As to the verse in question, however, I posted:
Paul was saying was that... because of the Law... PREGNANT women were safer (from persecution in the form of physical assault from opposing Jews) than non-pregnant women
Dear BTS is the one who made the assumption that Roman culture was the issue. Not that it didn't play a part; again, it was to the Romans that christians were often delivered up. But that was not the point. I stated the point when I posted:
They were in the times when "tribulation" was coming upon the early congregation, when people had been delivered up, even to murder. Paul knew this... and because he had personally participated in delivering folks UP... KNEW what would keep certain ones SAFE!
Meaning, he knew what those he once walked with and like... would and would NOT do... and to whom. Dear BTS applied the "Roman culture" factor here. I mean, perhaps I was unclear... and if so, I apologize... but I don't think so. Even so, that is not where I "went" with this verse, at all. The "Roman culture" part had to do with him not "permitting" women to speak in public but to learn at home from their husbands... not with why women would be "kept safe" in childbirth.
I hope that disspells some of your... ummmm... confusion (and dear BTS'), dear Cofty.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Goodness, I thought I answered that ad nauseum: he wasn't addressing Roman culture; he was addressing JEWISH culture.
Paul didn't write to Jews. He wrote to Gentiles. He was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
And I posted information to support how Roman women were viewed... and restricted... after dear BTS objected and posted as to Roman women being priestesses, etc.
Roman women could, and did, speak in public. They could hold religious office, indeed, some important religious offices, such as those dedicated to Vesta or Ceres, were vested in women alone. This required public religious speech. This was no problem in Roman society of that time.
But that is besides the point. You are reading something into the text that is not there. Paul clearly says that women should keep their yaps shut in church because Adam came first and Eve screwed up. He didn't say to do so in order to not cause problems with outsiders. That just isn't there. The reason he gives is because of Eve coming second and screwing up.
And don't foget Paul's first reason was that Adam was made first. In Paul's misogynistic mind Adam's being made first gave him superiority over the woman. Paul was silly enough to take genesis literally and draw moral lessons from it. Some things never change.
Pauls restriction on women was based on his understanding of Genesis and his view that women were inferior from men from the beginninng.
Someone may have thought that, but it wasn't Paul, dear one (again, peace to you!). Let's look at what Paul said on the same matter to the Corinthians:
"Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. " 1 Corinthains 14:34, 35
Before we look at that, though, let's look at what came before it:
"For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not [the author] of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."
Now, I ask you: why was it "shameful" for a woman to speak in the congregation (church)? First of all, they met in houses. However, the MEN still attended synagogue. So the ONLY place Paul could have been talking about was synagogues: public places. Could women speak in synagogues? No. They were public places and women weren't allowed to speak publicly. Were women given the gift of prophesying, though? According to the Prophets, they could... and would. And according to Peter and Luke, they did. Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:17, 18
What, though, is the point of the gift of prophesying if one can only share it with one's spouse? What if one didn't have a husband? Like these women:
"On the next [day] we who were Paul's companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was [one] of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied." Acts 21:8, 9
I ask you: from WHOM did these women "learn"? Their husbands? What husbands? And TO whom did they prophesy? Their husbands???
Even so, let's now look at the "law" that Paul (?) stated made it "shameful" for women to speak in public. Note, I say "speak in public" because the Greek word to denote "church" at 1 Corinthians 14:35, is "ekklesia" which means... wait for it:
"a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly..."
So, what LAW... made it shameful for women to speak in such instances? The Law Covenant? Couldn't be. Why? Because there is no such law under Moses... because Miriam spoke in the assembly by authority from Moses... Deborah JUDGED the assembly by appointment from God... Hulda and others were prophetesses... even Anna was a prophetess... and my Lord did not condemn HER.
So what "law" was Paul referring to? What law... made it "shameful" for women to speak publicly... or hold dominion over men? ROMAN law. I posted the quotes and links to show this. If ROMAN women couldn't speak publicly and publicly teach men... a CHRISTIAN woman doing so would only raised GROUNDS for her to be persecuted, even put to death.
Why did Paul, though, invoke Adham and Eve? I explained that: at the time Israel was a hard-headed, hard-hearted, stiff-necked house. Both those who were Jews... and Jews who were now christians. They didn't listen... to the potential detriment of their lives. In some instances, to the lives of entire congregations! Heck, one of the pet peeves of the WTBTS is that members DON'T LISTEN. How many times are people warned not to save seats? Do they LISTEN? What does it TAKE to get people to LISTEN? Sometimes... the invocation of something that scares them: Armageddon (for the WTBTS) - Eve's subjection to Adham for the early christians.
But is was NOT their spiritual lives that Paul was trying to "keep safe" - it was their literal lives. Again, you DON'T have to take MY word for this. The same Source that "fed" me... can and will feed you. All you need to do... is ask.
Again, peace to you, all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
Why did Paul, though, invoke Adham and Eve? I explained that: at the time Israel was a hard-headed, hard-hearted, stiff-necked house. Both those who were Jews... and Jews who were now christians. They didn't listen... to the potential detriment of their lives. In some instances, to the lives of entire congregations! Heck, one of the pet peeves of the WTBTS is that members DON'T LISTEN. How many times are people warned not to save seats? Do they LISTEN? What does it TAKE to get people to LISTEN? Sometimes... the invocation of something that scares them: Armageddon (for the WTBTS) - Eve's subjection to Adham for the early christians.
Completely irrelevant obfuscation. Paul didn't let women teach because Adam was made first and Eve was stupid enough to be deceived. No supernatural voices required.
Paul didn't write to Jews. He wrote to Gentiles. He was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
He was an Apostle to the Gentiles, yes, dear BTS (again, peace to you!), but he most certainly wrote (and spoke) to the Jews:
"Paul, a slave of [Jesus] Christ and called to be an apostle... to all those who are in Rome as God’s beloved ones, called to be holy ones:" Romans 1:1
"NowI speak to YOU who are people of the nations. " Romans 11:13
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are [in Eph´e·sus] and faithful ones in union with Christ Jesus:" Ephesians 1:1
"Entering into the synagogue, he spoke with boldness for three months, giving talks and using persuasion concerning the kingdom of God. But when some went on hardening themselves and not believing, speaking injuriously about The Way before the multitude, he withdrew from them and separated the disciples from them, daily giving talks in the school [auditorium] of Ty·ran´nus. This took place for two years, so that all those inhabiting the [district of] Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks." Acts 19:8-10
C'mon, dear one, if the only way you know of these things is the Bible, at least know what the BIBLE says...
Roman women could, and did, speak in public.
To Roman women, yes. Because the men could not. Nor could Roman women speak publicly to men.
They could hold religious office, indeed, some important religious offices, such as those dedicated to Vesta or Ceres, were vested in women alone. This required public religious speech. This was no problem in Roman society of that time.
Again, the speech was limited to women BY women. In the christian congregations, however, there was "neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor freeman." I posted the historical facts, dear one. I'm thinking you didn't bother to look at those, though...
But that is besides the point.
Is it?
You are reading something into the text that is not there.
Actually, I'm not the one who did that. I'm reading exactly what was there, albeit perhaps not discernable due Paul's need to use compulsion to get those to listen back then... the misuse of one Greek word... AND the misinterpretation by those who wish to use "Paul" as a means to lord it over women. It's quite divisive a verse, is it not?
Paul clearly says that women should keep their yaps shut in church because Adam came first and Eve screwed up.
Clearly to you, perhaps. To me, not so much. Of course, I'm hearing this with different "ears"... and so seeing it with different "eyes", so...
He didn't say to do so in order to not cause problems with outsiders. That just isn't there.
Not that you can see, perhaps not.
The reason he gives is because of Eve coming second and screwing up.
I can see why some would want to believe that... and believe that that's what he meant. Again, one hears what one wants to hear... and sees what one wants to see. Including me. Again, no one has to take my word for it.
And again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
Wow that was interesting about women.
Thanks sis!!!!!
I guess I would have to stay pregnant every year to protect my mouth, lol ha ha ha
Love ya justmom
You and me both, dear 'Mom (the greatest of love and peace to you, girl!) - LOLOLOLOL!
Peace!
Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
Paul, altho a Roman citizen, main grouding was in Judaism. He persecuted the church, not as a Roman, but as a Jew.
Your analysis makes no sense. It is sad for women to just accept a male dominated world. The Witness culture would be so much better and stronger if women were not stripped of any meaniingful role, save maid. Sorry, Paul, women are not breeding livestock. John Dominic Crossan poiints out that the authentic Pauline verses contain many positive statements towards women that our faith tradition causes us to ignore for the impact of scripture he prob. never wrote. My reaction was that Crossan lost his marbles. I checked every citation and also confirmed what scholars believe are Paul's writings and what are actually against his teachings. Most of Acts is contrary to his letters.
So I used to spit at the mention of Paul's name. Since Crossan' s book, I've discovered another Paul. It comes as a shock but I now admire Paul. Jehopvher was silly in creating women with intelligence and insight. All He needed to create was a brute animal to bear children. Dogs, rats -bear children. Having the same brain and other strucutres as men makes Genesis totally impossible as a literal matter.
If I am correct, there are Gnostic gospels attributed to Mary Magdalene. Has anyone seen the Donatella scultpure of Mary M. as chastened prostitute. Very powerful. The Bible is full of very respectful references to her. Men were jealous and total lies were proclaimed. In fact, Virign Mary and Mary M. seem to be the original Madonna, prostitute complex. Two respectful women were too much for men.
