Childbirth, A Protection For Women (Per Paul)... How?

by AGuest 212 Replies latest jw friends

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Tammy, I looked quickly. Firefox will not allow me to cut and paste. FN 68 in the wikipedia article on Luke_The Gospel mentions the divurgence. It says he misses Paul's main point. There is talk that the author was too impressed with Paul and made him into a superhero. Is it any wonder I don't know the details. The source could have summarized the difference in a phrase.

    There will be more time tomorrow. I noticed that almost all the books I purchased have to do with Historical Jesus and not with theology.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Even so, until the 6th century BCE

    Oh! Shoot! Typo, dear Zid (peace to you, and thank you for catching that!). I mean to post 5th century BC.

    Even so, I would like to share the following from your source:

    "According to Roman law women were under the complete control of the pater familias, the male head of the extended family unit. This power extended to life and death. A death penalty could be imposed upon a woman for adultery or drinking alcohol.(63) The pater familias arranged marriages and appointed guardians for the women of his family. A woman could not legally transact business, make a contract or a will, or manumit a slave without the approval of her guardian.(64) However, a woman might request a new guardian or a reversal of a decision by a guardian by submitting her case to a magistrate. By the time of Augustus a free woman was exempt from the control of a guardian after she had borne three children; a freed woman after the birth of four.(65) The law of guardians was not rigidly enforced and women frequently did transact business independently of them."

    "In Jewish religion women were also kept subordinate and silent. Women were more restricted in Judaism than they had been in the Old Testament.(101) They could not recite the prayers at meals. They were not obligated as men were to go up to Jerusalem to participate in the major pilgrim festivals. Women were barred from studying the Torah.(102) They could not be counted among the minyan, the quorum of men who had to be present for worship to take place. Theoretically any adult person had the right to read and to preach in the synagogue.(103) But in practice women were kept physically separate from men in the synagogue and were not allowed to read at all. Furthermore, women were denied the education which would have enabled them to preach."

    "In the diaspora, on the other hand, Jewish sects were more greatly affected by the experience of hellenism and foreign cultures. In the Jewish colony at Elephantine in Upper Egypt women could own property and transact business, take oaths and initiate divorce. They were also taxed and called up for military service.(104) The Therapeutae, an Essene-like sect living in Egypt, were also much more positive in their attitude toward women than the Essenes of Palestine. The Therapeutae admitted women to full membership in the community. Women were, however, still segregated and silent during worship. Both the Elephantine colony and the Therapeutae may have been influenced by the freedom and high position of women in Egyptian society."

    "First century Judaism lived in the Roman empire and in the cultural milieu of Hellenism. It was unable to ignore secular culture, but had to react to it positively or negatively."

    Now, this is just one source. There are others, of course. But, again, no one has to take my word for what Paul meant... and why. Truly.

    Again, peace to you, all!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • ziddina
    ziddina
    "Oh! Shoot! Typo, dear Zid (peace to you, and thank you for catching that!). I mean to post 5th century BC. ..." AGuest

    Ah, 5th Century B.C. is still long before the time of Roman power....

    If you knew anything about the "Punic Wars", you'd realize that Rome didn't become a power until AFTER they'd defeated the Carthaginians...

    Which again supports the date of around 100 - 150 B.C. before there were any such things as "wealthy Roman matrons"...

    As to your quote - it actually supports what I've been saying all along - that the "heathen" nations treated their women better than the Middle-Eastern Jews...

    "... Furthermore, women were denied the education which would have enabled them to preach.
    In the diaspora, on the other hand, Jewish sects were more greatly affected by the experience of hellenism and foreign cultures. In the Jewish colony at Elephantine in Upper Egypt women could own property and transact business, take oaths and initiate divorce.They were also taxed and called up for military service.(104) The Therapeutae, an Essene-like sect living in Egypt, were also much more positive in their attitude toward women than the Essenes of Palestine. The Therapeutae admitted women to full membership in the community. Women were, however, still segregated and silent during worship. Both the Elephantine colony and the Therapeutae may have been influenced by the freedom and high position of women in Egyptian society. ..."

    You'll notice that the Jewish sects and colonies that WERE INFLUENCED BY 'HEATHEN' CULTURES, WERE MUCH MORE LIBERAL AND EGALITARIAN IN THEIR TREATMENT OF THEIR WOMEN...!!!

    Now THIS - your inability to absorb FACTS - this is a CLASSIC example of the folly of valuing some specious, non-proveable "deity" over the REAL value of FACTS...!!

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    shelby, I have to agree with Zid re Roman and Greek women.

    and this statement of yours is plainly wrong

    It was unlawful, under ROMAN rule... for women to speak to or meet with men PUBLICLY... or for men to teach WOMEN (anything, and certainly not PUBLICLY).

    where did you get this info from. Women could meet and speak to men publicly under Roman rule. Why are you misrepresenting Roman women in this way?

    men could also teach women and they could do this publicly too. I must really take issue with you when you frame the Romans and Greeks in such a bad light to promote ancient Jewish women in a good light

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    also paterfamilias has reference to three generation households and applied in a legal sense and refers to legal niceties rather than to real life as such households were atypical and not the norm. Most paterfamily heads did not live long to see their offspring reach adulthood and so paternal interference was probably minimal. For reference please see the book entitled The Roman Family by Suzanne Dixon (1992).

    edit: Shelby I have a lot of empathy for you but if you are going to dish the dirt on other peoples to elevate your own agenda and if you are going to do it the extent that you are at present then I have to publicly disagree with you.

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    Tec,

    You are sincere, but sincerely misguided. Hopefully one day you will see just what nonsense you are supporting.

  • watersprout
    watersprout

    *Giggles* Loves how a certain one BOTR (check out my subtlity) uses ''wikipedia'' as a reliable source!

    Seriously I have got severe heartburn by reading this thread... eurgh....

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    it gives me heartburn too watersprout - seeing how Shelby is misrepresenting the Romans, Roman rule and Roman women - wikipedia is a better source than her Lord. On the other hand, Shelby if this is what you were taught at university and not by the Lord, please share your sources. Also why has the Lord not corrected your understanding on this and also allowed you to make such a hatchet job of 1Tim2:11-15. Why has he not stopped you denigrating Jews to the extent that we are now to imagine the Jews of Paul's day as people who were persecuting christian women to such a degree that pregnancy would be a protection.

  • watersprout
    watersprout

    Soft & gentle My Lord is also Shelby's (the greatest love and peace to you) Lord... I was not on about Shelby I was on about the others. I know nothing about Romans/Jewish law so i'm staying out of it. All Shelby did was share something my Lord told her, from that escalates this thread.

    If I have the stomach for it later I will have another read, but I have just eaten lunch and I really don't want heartburn again today.

    Peace

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    watersprout usually I don't have the stomach to take issue with Shelby as I like her very much. Her misrepresentations of the Romans and the Greeks needs contesting though. Why is she rubbbishing other peoples like this?

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