What do customs have to do with anything? Most customs keep us busy thinking how to accomplish our OWN agenda which for most people leave very little time to do good to someone not on the schedule of things to do.
Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible
by flamegrilled 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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N.drew
How does one "not forsake the gathering of yourselves together"?
Two main ways.
The first way is to be accepting all who seek the WAY TRUTH and LIFE. Leave no one out of your hope.
The second way is to be the kind of "new personality" that even the least one would like to cling to THE HOPE WITH.
Are you someone who is repulsive to people? Then you do not obey the command to "do not forsake the gathering together". Because where the repulsive one goes no one will follow.
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N.drew
what was the purpose of the first century congregation and the appointed elders?
Isn't it so the word would be transfered as pure as possible down through the age? Now that we have it in it's pitiful present written form, there's not much more protecting of it left, is there?
It doesn't need to be delivered any longer. It needs an overhaul though. I know it does (the understanding of it). I don't hear voices. I match the word to the reality and then add a little common sense and logic to it.
But the Bible has turned into some weird competition between it's adherents It's a no wonder that people aren't gathering to it.
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Miles3
I happen to have chosen the three points raised in my opening post, since it seems to me that these are clear requirements that ought to be easy to identify in any individual or group. Are they the most important? I'm not saying that. I don't know. But they at least appear not to be trivial, so I chose to start with those. Shooting down JWs on those or other issues doesn't really help address the initial question.
You have not chosen those 3 points, the Watchtower has chosen them for you, which is apparent in the way you frame them and disregard all relevant information that shows the Watchtower doesn't even fit those points when coming from the scriptural angle instead of the publications angle. That's why you don't answer the points other people raise when they're issues your experience in the Watchtower has taught you to avoid, because they do show the Watchtower at fault. We've been through that phase too, so it's easy for us to recognise when the indoctrination kicks in - it did for us, even when we were assuring the person we were talking to of our utmost sincerity and desire to know the truth. I'm not discrediting whatever you could say, I'm just pointing that the way your frame some questions and disregard evidence is typical of a mind that's still in. It gets better though, so don't loose hope.
"Shooting JWs" on those issues does address the question, since you can't answer those unless you show why they're framed that way by the Watchtower, and why the Watchtower is non scriptural both in the way it presents the questions and the actions it says purportedly validates the Watchtower.
One thing that I would say in general from my research is I've learned that a lot of things have been recorded about ancient history, and the level of evidence for the "facts"asserted varies wildly. It's really important to peel off the layers and substantiate everything. The number of times I've checked out the "facts" and found that they led to suposition and conjecture is just astounding.
That's the general arguments from creationnists. All it shows is that those using the argument didn't bother ressearching the facts that would have contradicted their views, and only picked up (usually through a misunderstanding of the other point of view, or a misquotation) whatever could be construed as "it's a matter of interpretation". The presence of man on earth for at least 100 000 years is not a matter of conjecture, same for the impossibility of a biblical deluge, and same for the fact all evidence discovered up to know infirms Bible accounts till at least the 13th century BCE. That's not a matter of interpreting discoveries, it's just that the whole enormous burden of evidence infirms the Bible account. We do know what happened and didn't happen, it's not just a matter of jealous kings erasing the mention of Israelites. Biblical archeologists don't dispute that fact.
Don't let the fact alost everybody here discovered those facts change your opinion of our posts though, it's not because we're aware of what the castle is build on that we can't perfectly know how it's buildt. I can recognise when the mind control kicks in and ones stop at his opinion of the person instead of listening to the arguments themselves... that's Watchtower 101.
Now to go back to your really partial answer of my posts, you can't weasel out of the sword issue, thus recognising the issue is not clear-cut, and keep framing agape love in black and white war/no war. At the time of Jesus, centuries of fending of beasts had already taught humanity you only equip a sword when your opponents are other human beings. That's not opinions, just hard facts - those that relied on swords against animals just didn't make it. Unlike fanatic Jews, Jesus was against using physical violence against the authorities of his time though, and first century Christians did the same. Yet they didn't mind servind in the army, or using swords to defend themselves against bandits. Think about Corneille, why would the Bible not ever mention the fact he had to quit the army? The fact he was serving Cesar didn't enter into consideration, because it was not a problem. There were soldiers among those Jesus preached to (including the Jews), he didn't teach them to leave the army. There were soldiers among the first Christians, yet no letter of Paul tells congregations to expel them.
You are really letting the Watchtower frame the questions for you - it's really evident with agape love. You are not framing them scripturaly.
You didn't answer my points about love, except with the fallacy "we must have had different experiences". Pedophilia treatment is an organisational issue, so are the teaching about rape, abuse between spouses and disfellowshiping.
Just ask yourself: when was the last time I bought some food for a family in need inside the congregation, or give them some cash to pay the bills? (Alternatively, wait till somebody in the congregation doesn't have any money left, and see what financial help the elders are ready to give them with the congregation's money - opposed to what all other churches except the Witnesses do all year round) How often a month do I visit my beloved brothers and sisters that don't attend the meetings regularly anymore? When was the last time I visited sister Faithfull, who is bedridden in a nursing home for the elderly? When a disfellowshiped human being comes to the meeting, do I greet them and treat them in a human manner, or do I unlovingly make myself the accomplice of the mental abuse other Witnesses pour on those disfellowshiped ones? What do I do, at my own level, to not associate with an organisation that closes its heart to the suffering of women and children, and unscripturally protects pedophiles and abusers for the sole purpose of preserving its outward appearance?
As far as point 2, preaching, except showing yourself even more judgemental, you didn't address the issues. Other churches preach, that's how the Mormons, the evangelist, the pentecotists, the adventist all manage to outgrow the Watchtower day after day. They certainly must be doing something right, and God is blessing them!
About the 3rd point, maybe you realised that churches do assemble, thus you're only looking at two point when deciding who follows The Unscriptural Truth According To The Watchtower(C)?
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Miles3
Forgot about hell: yes, it's call Purgatory. People that sinned, but aren't irremediably wicked can spend some quality time in Purgatory, then they can be admitted to Heaven if they've been good kids. I'd take that against eternal destruction any day! Especially since innocents don't go to Hell, whereas innocents are killed by Jehovah at Har-Maguedon.
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tec
Tammy - I would do my best. But one could imagine extreme circumstances about anything. What if you were the guy James Franco played in 127 hours? Would you normally choose to go without food and water for several days? Would you choose to cut your arm off with a blunt knife? So I don't feel that imagining an extreme circumstance tells us much about what we "should" be doing as Chrsitians on a day to day basis when all the normal facets of life are available to us.
Its not really an ex treme circumstance though. The majority and mainstream 'christianity' teaches and believes in an eternal hell. Would you gather with them, or would the fact that they teach hell, give you pause?What do you think about this gathering together NOT being a command?
Peace,
Tammy
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N.drew
I have two requests please.
What is a more definitive scripture for the command to gather together.
And
How is one encouraged and encouraging when gathering together?
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N.drew
I do not ask a question if I know the answer or to prove there is no answer.
My perspective about "gathering together" is it is in opposition to GO, MAKE DISCIPLES.
And it seems to be the opposite of the first command to "fill the Earth and subdue it". This will be difficult for some one to grasp so I shall explain that if the goal is to gather together then how can one also go forth to subdue the EARTH? (This is a spiritual topic that does not belong on public forum).
The way I see the other point (how does one be encourage?) is approval. I do not want your approval. How do I get encouraged? It is by exhibiting love to any one I want to. (do not go there - I know how some people think - )
There is more HAPPINESS in giving.
World says giving is BETTER.
But Bible says
Happy are...
Happy are....
Happy are....
Happy are....
Happy are...
There's nine of them.
Matthew 5:1-12.
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N.drew
"exhibiting love to anyone I want to" some people might equate love to sex. That's what I meant.
Oh it's soooo easy to talk to people, why won't God do it? BIG SIGH
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N.drew
So then the world twists Jesus' words when it says "it's better to give". It isn't better. There is more HAPPINESS in it. Not glee. It's truer, therefore giving draws the giver closer to GOD.