I have to go now, but it was real nice talkin' with FG
Take care :)
Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible
by flamegrilled 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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flamegrilled
Tammy - I don't feel there is a contradiction. Christ is the way. Period. But let's just take the command to "gather together". If you believe that it really is not optional in scripture (as I do), and is therefore for our benefit (hence why it's commanded), then more parites than Christ are logically involved in being Christian. I'm not saying whether it's a particular denomination, a "house church", or this forum, the fact is that the condition must be met, and since a person can meet together in isolation then it must involve others.
So to me the contradiction arises when someone rigidly insists that, since Christ is the way, no one else is involved. That's the way my logic works anyway.
I am not here as a WTS apologist so I won't argue with the points you make about falling short on certain matters of scripture. All I'm doing is trying to look at the big picture with a clean slate. I happen to have chosen the three points raised in my opening post, since it seems to me that these are clear requirements that ought to be easy to identify in any individual or group. Are they the most important? I'm not saying that. I don't know. But they at least appear not to be trivial, so I chose to start with those. Shooting down JWs on those or other issues doesn't really help address the initial question.
Wasblind - with respect you've only partially quoted me. I don't mind discussing that, but I know it will send this thread off in all directions and probably get nowhere. I just wanted to stay on topic (or at least close to it). If it helps I do not believe the trinity, but neither do I believe that Jesus is a created angel. We may not as far apart in our thinking as you might imagine.
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flamegrilled
... should have been "more parties than Christ" in case you were trying to look up "parites" in the dictionary :)
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N.drew
The scripture about gathering together bothered me from almost the start of my adventure with the witnesses. If it means God is pleased that we should find each other and meet each other, why doesn't the scripture SAY so. Why does it say "do not forsake". Because of those words there, I am sure it means do not leave hope of the gathering of the (spiritual) sheep together at Christ's right hand.
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wasblind
My apologies FG,
I didn't mean to throw your thread off topic I guess I was just tryin' to point out
that the WTS accuses other religions of the same thing they do
I also believe, that there are other religions out there, that don't cause
as much harm spiritually and mentally, just my two cents :)
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flamegrilled
miles3 -
"Althought hell is a spitefull doctrine, at least you can get out of it after having been punished enough"
I didn't know that. I didn't want to get into these other doctrines here, but since I am ignorrant on this one please could you explain how that works? I thought the doctrine was that once you go there you are there for good. If I am wrong I would like to understand from scripture what the alternative is.
With regards to the rest of your post I can understand your perspective. If you don't believe any of the same fundamentals of scripture that I believe then you are not going to see things my way, and you'll just feel my original question is a moot point. I understand that. So really my question is only directed to people who believe that the the three points are valid in Christian theology and that believe there is a way that one can meet those requirements.
I'm not trying to avoid the argument, it's just not an argument that I need to have, since I have spent a lot of time satisfying myself that the scriptures are valid. I totally respect your right to see things otherwise. Of course I would like to convince you that you are wrong about that, but we'd get into volumes of information that are not related to the topic at hand and it sounds like you have reached your conclusions based on a lot of research anyway, so you just arrive at a different conclusion to me. Yes, I could be wrong, and I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do have enough evidence to satisfy myself that abandoning scripture altogether is not the way to go. One thing that I would say in general from my research is I've learned that a lot of things have been recorded about ancient history, and the level of evidence for the "facts"asserted varies wildly. It's really important to peel off the layers and substantiate everything. The number of times I've checked out the "facts" and found that they led to suposition and conjecture is just astounding.
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flamegrilled
N.Drew - with regards to the maning of "gathering ourselves" it's possible that you are correct. The phrase is only elsewhere used in 2 Thes 2:1 and it means exactly what you say.
Nevertheless, even if that's true the NT is pretty clear that the early Christians had congregation, that teaching took place there, that elders were appointed.
And the scripture also includes "incite to love and fine works ... encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near." It's true that could be acheived outside of group gatherings, but overall the scriptures seem to set a pattern for the church that meeting together for these purposes and for instruction is something instituted and encouraged by God. That's the way I read it.
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elderelite
FG, i am truly teying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but its difficult. You want all maner of information about people here but decline to share een basic about yourself. You claim to see doctrinal flaws but are admant in holding to JW organizational views and are defending them using strictly JW ideas. You claim to have read CoC but address none of it.
Frankly the alarm bells ring with every post you make. The psalmist referanced "those who hide what they are" and called them wicked. Thats the reasoning your organization uses to warn its members away from internet sites like this. How about some honest open answers as to who you are and why you are here. Not names and places, but general things that give insight into you. I have feely admitted im a married man, kids, family in "the truth", i live on the east coast of the USA, and currently serve as an elder. You can match that level of sharing without fear of discovery as i have proven.. Hard to take you as anything other than a bethel lurker or selfrigheous appointed person trying to prove a point, which is fine, just be up front about it.
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wasblind
"You claim to see doctrinal flaws but are admant in holding to JW "
Hey EL,
When a person knows they are bein' led wrong, but continue to follow that wrong
they share in the blame. there's a scripture for that but I have to go now maybe
someone can find it for me, take care
You know, drinkin' the glass of water that has been poisoned
he know it's was poisoned, but he drunk it anyway
so who's fault is it that he died
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ShadesofGrey
Flamegrilled, the problem is your order of things. First, one must go to Christ. Then Christ will lead you to the group of people he wants you with.
John 5: 39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
The Lord is alive. He leads us with His Spirit. Once you have the Spirit to guide you these other things are much easier to answer.
Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.