He's Trying to get me to come back to the fold...by admitting the faults of the Watchtower

by PYRAMIDSCHEME 54 Replies latest jw friends

  • PYRAMIDSCHEME
    PYRAMIDSCHEME

    MY firend (who is an elder) recently sent the email below trying to get me to come back. He freely admits the faults of the WT and even goes on to say that even if they did not have Gods Holy Spirit, he felt they would still have Gods blessing as the one true religion. I thought I would get your thoughts on this as it really is (sadly) delusional. He's a nice guy and I know his heart is in the right place but this reasoning is absolutly delusional. Sorry for the length he does like to write (one of the things we both have i common.)

    I've been giving a great deal of thought to our discussion the other day. The majority of people in the world are not of a scholarly bent. People hate to read. People hate to research things. Most people are content to simply be programmed with a singular line of thought. However, others are a little more deep. Others have found that seeking knowledge involves asking questions and then digging for the answers until we find them, until we are completely satisfied. When it comes to understanding the Bible and reconciling any teaching of any religion, this process matters most. In the very first letter to the infant christian congregation, Paul told the brothers and sisters in Thessalonica to "make sure of all things, hold fast to what is fine." In order to hold fast to what is fine, first we must make sure of all things. Making sure, establishing fact, means examining evidence and looking for truth and true understanding. Sometimes the answers cause us to question our faith, sometimes it's just the process itself.

    You raised a question concerning Proverbs 4:18. The path of the righteous one is like a bright light that keeps getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. This scripture has been the subject of debate in the past. Ray Franz uses it regularly in criticizing the organization. It's natural to conclude that if Christ truly wanted to gather his people together into an organized body, such as the congregation, and he is head of the congregation, and we are guided by holy spirit, then he would simply grant us the privilege of knowing truth, especially since we are to worship Jehovah with spirit and truth. And there is only one truth. So it is natural that phrases such as "present truth" and "current truth" should raise some questions. The term present truth was used extensively by Russell and his associates.

    They used it, not with the idea that the truth changes, but more with the thought that their understanding of truth was progressive. While that can be the same today, you don't really see it in publications from the faithful slave. You might hear it expressed by a brother or sister, maybe even from the platform, but that would merely be an extension of that person's opinion. And that has been the way of things since the beginning of the congregation. For example: In speaking of Jesus, Mark 4:33 says that he spoke with many illustrations to explain God's Word to his follows as far as they were able to listen. At John 16:12, he told his apostles that he had many things to say to them but they were not able to bear them at present. Earlier he had demonstrated the wisdom in this when he spoke at John chapter 6 of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and unable to grasp a true understanding of what he was saying, many of his followers left him. Why? Because they did not understand or agree? No, for the 12 did not understand, and it is logical that they would not agree to eat his flesh or drink his blood. Such things were repugnant, especially under the Law. They had even been among those who were murmuring. People left or stayed because they either believed that Jesus was the son of God or they didn't. It didn't matter at the time if they understood. And they continued not to understand things.

    The apostles could not expel demons on occasion because they lacked faith, not recognizing where their authority came from, relying on themselves. James and John did not grasp that they would all rule together in heaven, requesting for places of privilege. They did not comprehend what it meant to minister to one another, always arguing about who was the greatest. Peter walked on water, yet his faith wavered and he began to sink. Jesus had told them clearly he would die, yet they could not comprehend such a thing. He had also told them of his resurrection, yet when it happened, there were those who doubted. Upon his ascension back to heaven, they asked him if he was restoring the kingdom at that time, although he had clearly outlined the work ahead for them. All this proves that as humans, when it comes to spiritual things, we can speculate and guess and anticipate all we want, but usually we do not fully understand until after the fact. Also, answers do come slowly, progressively. All the things mentioned above were eventually understood by the apostles, but only as time passed and Jehovah's purpose worked out. But more subjects arose. For example. Peter was instructed to begin teaching to the Gentiles. He was merely told to stop calling unclean what Jehovah considered clean. And it had already been observed that with his death, Christ nailed the Law Covenant to the torture stake.

    He had concluded a new covenant with his disciples. But as the preaching work extended out to the nations, the question of circumcision arose. Basically older men, or elders, were teaching that gentiles had to get circumcised in order to become Christians. And it caused quite a disturbance. So much so that several were stumbled. Now Christ was already in heaven. He had already been granted authority over everything in heaven and on earth. He was already presiding as head of the congregation. He was already directing the preaching work, already directing the growth of the christian congregation. Holy spirit had already been poured out some 15 years earlier at Pentecost. Jehovah could have easily told Peter in his vision that the Gentiles did not need to get circumcised. All the answers were there. But the understanding was not. No, the local elders argued about it, even debated with Paul and Barnabas, with traveling brothers. They did not feel comfortable in setting a precedent themselves, so they traveled to the central body of elders in Jerusalem and laid the issue before them. Did they find the answer right away? No. The scriptures tell us that they had a heated discussion. Even qualified brothers who were taking the lead could not agree. After prayer and scriptural consideration, they found their answer. But that was not the end of the discussion. It continued to be a stumbling block for quite some time.

    Now in the course of that, it's easy to conclude that some were stumbled and offended. Probably even mistreated. And what about the brothers who agreed to the procedure, only to find out that it was never necessary in the first place? I would be upset. Some even no doubt fell away from the truth. Why? Was it the issue at hand really? No. Like the earlier followers of Christ, they just no longer believed, because they refused to look at the evidence. They forgot everything good Jehovah had done for them. They forgot all the good the brothers had done. And really it comes down to our relationship with Jehovah. That's who we've dedicated ourselves to.

    Apostates right now are looking to a book called the Gentile Times Reconsidered as the next gospel, as it would indicate the date of the fall of Jerusalem being later than 607, which in turn would make null the chronology of 1914. But even if it was proved true, even if the brothers issued a statement that said they were wrong, even if there was no more governing body or no it was proved that there really isn't a faithful slave class, those who really love Jehovah would go on serving him. Because they have tasted and seen that he is good. They have seen evidence of all the good he has brought to their lives. And ultimately, the brothers who are taking the lead do make mistakes. Maybe they do things wrong at times or have wrong estimations. But they also accomplish so much good, and they never do anything malicious. It's Jehovah who originally set the precedent of progressive truth.

    He gave the original prophecy at Genesis 3:15. He indicated there would be a seed. Later he told Abraham that the nations would bless themselves by means of his seed, demonstrating that the seed would pass through his line. His grandson Jacob prophesied that a scepter would be involved and the seed would come through the line of Judah. Later the covenant was made with David and it was revealed that it would be everlasting. And down through Isaiah's time, and down through the later prophets, all the way through John the Baptist, and up to the Christ. Only over a period of a few thousand years did Jehovah's people come to fully understand why the Law and the writings of the prophets were penned in the first place. They were all pointing to Christ. Jesus said that a Great Apostasy would occur and the wheat would not be distinguished from the weeds. But later, in the time of the harvest, the wheat would emerge and become visible.

    What other organization is following Jesus' direction of preaching the good news in all the inhabited earth? What other organization teaches so predominately from the Bible? What other organization has displayed such a universal brotherly love and is so united worldwide? What other organization lives what they teach so much? Who else today would fill that role of the true wheat? In the past, those who have taken the lead, such as the Patriarchs, the Judges, the faithful Kings of old, the Prophets, and those of the first century congregation have served Jehovah whole souled, with limited information that has been revealed slowly, and in their eagerness or understanding have overstepped themselves and missed the mark. We cannot expect anything to be any different now.

    Jehovah accomplishes his work in spite of us at times, not because of us. But no matter how many mistakes they made in the past or are even currently make, none of them involve information that is essential for our salvation. That is something that has never altered over the course of thousands of years. Wondering about the light getting brighter, debating over whether the governing body is scriptural, what Jesus meant by Faithful and Discreet Slave, how can the Bible reconcile the ice age, what is the correct understanding of "this generation", what is the cry of peace and security, is the interpretation of the Revelation It's Grand Climax book really accurate, why are so many still claiming to be of the anointed, did Jesus start reigning in the First Century or in 1914, what was the purpose of the dinosaurs, does the Governing Body have the right to tell us not to practice oral sex, why can't we grow beards, can we consider those who commit apostasy as sinning against the Holy Spirit, did Rutherford have an affair with his secretary, what is the Sign of the Son of Man going to look like, did the Jews or the Romans kill Jesus . . . and so forth . . . and so forth . . . just gives us topics to speculate on and have really good discussions about.

    Knowing them or not knowing them or having an accurate understanding of them have no bearing on our relationship with Jehovah or our salvation through the ransom sacrifice and survival in the new order. I'm sure Abraham and Sarah had great discussions about who was the seed and what would happen. Job had his own theories of why he was suffering. The prophets would have considered it blasphemy if you would have told them that the nation of Israel would some day no longer be God's favored people. It wasn't knowledge or an accurate understanding that counted them as righteous. It was their faith. Many things are left unanswered at this time because it provides us an opportunity to demonstrate our faith. An imperfect, overbearing elder is a test to our faith. An inaccurate statement by the faithful slave is a test to our faith. But without faith, it's impossible to please God well. My friend, if you walk away from the brotherhood, you are walking away from Jehovah. Where else are you going to go?

  • 2tone
    2tone

    Sounds like theocratic warfare that they will say anything to get you back into the fold.

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    You've just been given a bunch of corrupt maligning bullshit that supports his own powerful spiritual stature.

    People left the WTS. because of the organization's blatant corruption and lies......myself included.

    Religion is a game of power, the corruption part appears in the underling progression of obtaining that power.

    How does your friend respond to the bible's instruction of staying away and not listening to false prophets,

    even more so ones that operate a commercial publishing business ?

    One has to take in consideration of JW elders standing up for their own obtained power stature that the WTS.

    organization offered these men and their own endeavors to protect that given power.

  • 2tone
    2tone

    thetrueone is right. Its a stupid little cult. Its a power trip. Thats a classic way they work. The elder gives a little just to suck you back in. Once your back in all that stuff he said he reverses and you have to accept it a certain way. He will say your in or your out no in between.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW
    What other organization is following Jesus' direction of preaching the good news in all the inhabited earth?

    What other organization has Replaced Jesus as Mediator?..

    What other organization teaches so predominately from the Bible?

    What other organization Baits with the Offer of a Bible Study ..Then Switchs to studying WBT$ Literature?..

    What other organization has displayed such a universal brotherly love and is so united worldwide?..

    What other religion turns family and friends on each other with Disfellowshipping?..

    What other organization lives what they teach so much?

    What other organization is as Hypocritical as the WBT$..

    By having an association with the United Nations?..

    Enjoy being WatchTarded..

    ...................... ...OUTLAW

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    sounds like his heart is in the right place, but he definately drinks the kool aid

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    I asked my PO outright...

    "If they are just men like me, and their desicions and intepretations are not spirit inspired, like me, ...isnt it safer to read the bible and make my own conclusion, that way, when Armageddon comes God will judge me for doing what I thought was right, rather than following what another person told me to do. God could ask me why i needed other men to inepret the bible for me? He could tell me that there are plain scriptures on avoiding this and to check out all the information. God could then say 'did these people not themselves admit to many mistakes?.'... etc etc"

    The PO told me it was best I did not come to meetings while I felt like this. I replied "do you not have a scriptural answer?"

    He could muster only one " do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together" he said how can you do this if you are intepreting the bible alone, to which i said "Pastor Russell did exactly that. and he formed the bible students to meet and discuss what they had found."

    This is when the face pulling began and he said things like "anyway.." and "ok then.." with a grimace, ready for me to leave his house.

    GAME OVER.

    Thank goodness I had that conversaion and left.

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    so in one minute he says, stay away from the congregation, then in the next breath, quotes a bible text to support meeting attendance. These guys are just so clueless

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    As I read that, I was thinking to myself, This guy is really suffering from "Where else is there to go" syndrome. Then he ends the e-mail with that?!?!?!?!?!?!

    Are you going to reply? Maybe a simple "I understand John 6:68 to read differently, with a note that it says "To Whom, not Where"

    I doubt it though. Sounds like he already knows all of the "apostate" issues and is happy to stay in the fold.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Where else is there to go?

    This is a common conclusion made by elders and alike that know the paddle is missing and the creek stinks, I know one elder that would say hings like "the society suggest that we...."

    or

    "the organisation reccomends that..."

    So that he didnt feel bad when he disagreed with what he was saing from the platform. Its great the it allowed his to sleep at night, but prety shitty for all those nodding sheep that drink it all in. Disgusting behaviour and shameful.. but I know why he still does it to this day...

    Where else is there to go ?

    Sad

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