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Subjugation of Women
by Band on the Run 39 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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talesin
BOTR,, you can rest assured that any discussion that involves even a whiff of feminist ideas, or suggestion that women are not treated equally, will include the same old tired remarks by elderelite (sorry for your bad marriage, but are all men rapists because I was raped? come on, stop whining and GET BUSY LIVING) ,, and james woods (who picked his screen name aptly, as the RL Woods is a total woman-hater).
I HATED MEN until I listened to Gloria Steinem --- she taught me that men are people, too,, not just rapists and dream-stealers - that's what feminism is about ,, not man-hating,, but EQUALITY. In fact, use the term 'humanist' --- it's the same thing. It's the 'patriarchal system' that feminist leaders have been attacking for centuries --- just like the 'patriarchal system' of the JWS --- it's wrong, it oppresses women, and forces men into an unnatural position of being the BOSS instead of the PARTNER.
My father did not lord it over my mother,,, truth be told, I have always believed she ran everything unless he metaphorically 'put his foot down' on the rare occasion. Be that as it may,,, obeisance was always paid that he was the 'head of the household', and when push came to shove,,, it was his "Biblical" and "God-given" prerogative to say 'yea' or 'nay' ,,, no,,, his RIGHT ,,, as his superior penis-bearing self, according to the WTS.
Period.
t
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talesin
I think poor people have greater stressors that trigger domestic violence.
I would have to differ on this, though. More and more, wealthy women are coming forward about their abusive husbands and molesting fathers. The "Wife-beater tee shirt wearing thug" is really a cultural myth. STELLA!!!!!!!!!!
tal
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flipper
My wife has some good guy friends on this board who look at her as their equal. I have some good female friends on this board who I view as my equal. I think some of us are adjusting our post JW views quite well in regards to relationships with the opposite sex. Some of us don't have the carry over views from having been Jehovah's Witnesses. Peace out, mr. Flipper
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designs
TD, That's quite a profound observation, I saw more than a few couples take the 'honorable' way out of their marriage's.
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truth_b_known
I agree with the statements that:
1) Jehovah's Witnesses tend to demean women. It is horrible and I hate it. I grew up watch my mother carry herself as a second class citizen and my father exploiting her for it.
2) Jehovah's Witnesses who are men tend to be emasculated. This is due to the belief system that it is unchristian to be strong. It is one of the reasons why I became frustrated. No one would "man up" and if you did you were put down for being a trouble maker.
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elderelite
Lol poor talesin.... So caught up in what she wants to see she didnt to read what i actually wrote... I stand by everything i said as it was in support of women and being balanced. Love ya tal, but taking the hardline "everyone not behind me 100% is my enemy" is just as extreme as the dubbies view. I love women, have a mother and daughter(s) that i care deeply for. I want women to have every right a man does.
I expect that if you took exception to something i said you can quote me, express reasonably the concept that bothered you, and we can have a rational discussion about it. Abset quotes and reasonable discussion, you come accross as what truly chauvinistic men accuse women of being: emotional and reactionary, unable to discuss things without tears in their eyes and unable to cope in a mans world.
I disagree with that view ( my mother runs a company with 1000+ employees)and know that to be untrue, but i didn note any real insight in your comments, just verbal jabs at two posters that you assume disagree with you.... I know you can do better tal I wish this was in person so i could extend a hand for a friendly shake, but my words will have to suffice
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TD
I HATED MEN until I listened to Gloria Steinem --- she taught me that men are people, too,, not just rapists and dream-stealers - that's what feminism is about ,, not man-hating,, but EQUALITY.
tal,
There is a semi-famous essay by the late W.P. Brown on the dangers of organization. I don't know if it's still popular among xJW's, but it was almost a rallying cry in the early days of the internet when the idea of 'reform' in the JW faith was popular.
Brown explained how any successful human ideology regardless of whether it was political social or religious would eventually crystallize into one or more organizations. The idealists would either die off or be supplanted by hard-fisted pragmatists with their own agendas. And the maintenance and survival of the organization(s) would become far more important than the original ideals upon which they were founded.
For example, Protestant religious sects founded in direct opposition to the ex cathedra authority exercised in Catholicism eventually formed governing bodies of their own which wield a level of authority in their own sphere comparable to that of the Pope and College of Cardinals. Sound familiar?
George Orwell wrote an amusing parody of the phenomenon called Animal Farm.
In a similar vein, the feminist movement was founded on the ideals of equality, but it is very difficult for an outsider (i.e. a man) to discern that now. For example, I used to support Introduce a Girl to Engineering Day. A couple of years ago, there was a NOW representative on a local talk radio station promoting the event. The D.J. playfully asked her if there should be an equivalent event for little boys, like introduce a boy to nursing day. She replied, “No. Learning what it’s like to be excluded is the best lesson for the little bastards.”
To me, that is a symptom of a larger problem. Prominent figures within the feminist movement have had plenty of chances to distance themselves from people like the late Valerie Solanas and others like her. A surprising number of them chose to praise her as a witty satirist instead.
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Band on the Run
I remember Steinem's writings concerning men. It blew my mind that a man could be a feminist. I don't hate men in my present life. It was limited to the Witness years. I don't come across many men who feel entitled to maid service, sex, wife's paycheck, sole decider of education for children. I even wonder if the Witnesses are in a time warp around 1950. Oh, how I loved I love Lucy. Now watching Ricky spank her, her constant begging for permission -- I still like it but it a startling revelation of how times have change. CBS would be taken off the air if it showed many scenes today.
Lucille Ball was quite the executive at Desilu. I doubt she purposely aired women hating shows.
Perhaps, as time goes by, the Witnesses will change their views. The stark language in the Bible is very problematic. You don't hear it from Jesus' mouth, however. I worked in the Senate when ERA extension hearings were held. Some pastors who were witnesses kept thumping their Bible and quoting where women belonged. They focused their outburts at the chair, the Senator for whom I worked. I thought I would have to literally run out of the hearings. The most conservative Southern senators publicly reproved the pastors, Yes, the Bible says that but real life includes women who deserve respect. They would never treat their wives as a servant. I doubt they won votes. Maybe the women's vote. I posted on another thread that my family attended KHs in a very black city. My relatives would have preferred anonymous suburban KHS but they had deep attachments to specific black people. Specific people get in the way of stereotypes.
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james_woods
James Woods,
I am not a New York Times reporter here. I'm certain the New York Times pays much more compensation. I have an absolute right to describe my feelings. If you listed how women screwed you, I would never correct you b/c you are not making a statement of fact but rather your opinion. I cannot judge what you feel. You cannot judge what I feel.
I know for a certainty that many women agree with me. Men should know how much women distrust them. No one made a statement about specific actors. You were not present for my JW adventures anymore than I have been around during your adventures. It takes chutzpah to correct my opinion. You can't fault what Krugman or David Brooks write on the opinion pages. If something on the front page is correct, you are free to get in touch with either the editors or ombudsman.
I do not Need your approval. The WT distorts relationships between men and women. People who should be life partners become enemies with adverse interests. I am a very proud alumna of a Seven Sister. Hear us roar! I no longer play a compliant, deferential role to men. Oh, my, a man disagrees with me. How can I go on living. Tough luck.
I was just pointing out that you seem quite hostile on this subject - and I think that is too bad.
and james woods (who picked his screen name aptly, as the RL Woods is a total woman-hater).
Just for what it is worth, Talesin - James Woods is my real name. And I am not a woman hater.