Well, I guess I am marked now...

by garyneal 26 Replies latest jw experiences

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    My wife did a talk last night at the Kingdom Hall concerning how a God of love could kill people. She asked me to come with her because she wanted the emotional support. I agreed and we were all on the way. Before the meeting began, Brother Hero comes to me and asks if we can start studying again. In my mind I was saying, never, but I wanted to give Brother Hero a reason to 'earn' my study but since he caught me off guard at that moment I asked him to get with me after the talk and I will let him know. My wife gives her talk while the kids and I were in the hallway. The littlest one would not sit still so we had to go out in the hall but we watched my wife through the window.

    We left immediately following so we could get the kids to bed at a respectable time. I had a copy of this letter to the elders as well as a copy of this news article concerning blood transfusions that I wanted to give to Brother Hero. However, my oldest daughter got a hold of them and instead shoved them in the contribution box. Oops.

    At any rate, Brother Hero asks again before I leaved and I promised to call him the next day. I called him this morning around lunch time to talk about the study and here is how the conversation went.

    First off, I explained to him that I did not see the point in studying anymore if he was unable to explain to me how their current understand of their blood doctrine was supported by the Bible (not to mention common sense). He responded by saying that while I did not understand things now that in time I will. That’s not good enough, because everything that we have studied since my questioning him on this doctrine and my sharing with him my views on the matter have been about everything but blood. I hate being misled in this way and I figured it was time to come clean.

    I asked him how they could he know that the witnesses have the one true religion and he immediately directed me to the scriptures in Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19, 20. I looked them up and figured that he would immediately point to the fact that they preach door to door as their marker of the one true religion. I replied, “There are a lot of people who call themselves Christian. One third of the world’s population if I am correct, so it seems that there has been a lot of preaching in the world.”

    He told me that the witnesses have been preaching the Kingdom since the days of Christ but I countered with the fact that the Jehovah’s Witnesses did not exist as a religion until the days of Russell and even then they were known as the Bible Students not the Jehovah’s Witnesses. He even went as far as to say that the people of Israel were considered the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I asked, “So if I were to go to a Jewish temple and ask a Jewish rabbi if the Israelites considered themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses back in Bible times, he would say yes?” “You should go to the Bible, Gary it says in the Bible that they were Jehovah’s Witnesses.” “The Bible calls them Jews,” I responded.

    At any rate, I knew this was not going anywhere so I took the conversation back to the original topic and said, “Look, what is important is that you can somehow show me how the scriptures support your current understanding of the blood doctrine. If you cannot do that, perhaps you can show me proof that the witnesses do indeed have the true religion and that the Watchtower is indeed God’s sole channel here on Earth. That is what you say right, that they are God’s sole channel?” “Yes,” he replied. “Then if you can prove that, I will listen,” I said.

    He told me things like how the witnesses follow the Bible as closely as possible or that the Bible supports what the witnesses teach. I replied, “A lot of religions claim the Bible supports their teachings. When I was an IFB, they too claimed that they followed the Bible as closely as possible and believed that they had the correct teachings. We even went door to door trying to win souls for Christ.” “You did what the Bible commands us to do then,” he said. “So am I to become an IFB again?” I asked. I then explained that the fact of the matter was that even though the pastor claimed to have the true gospel message from the Bible, that pastor also taught false things like urban legends such as the beast of Revelations being a super computer in Belgium as the truth. Confronting false teachings like this made me conclude that they could not be the only true church.

    “What do you think is the one true religion, Gary?” he asked. “None of them,” I replied. “So you don’t believe that the first century Christians had the one true religion then?” he asked. “I think that Jesus could be considered the truth but that none of His followers had everything right,” I replied, “In the book of Revelations, it speaks of 7 different churches all of them had something that was a little off as far as Christ was concerned.” “Well, of course imperfect men would not have everything right,” he said. “Then can’t that be said of other churches, imperfect men not getting everything right?” I asked. He went on to talk about how the church members would go about fighting in wars and participating in politics, etc, etc.. I brought up the Amish and he countered by asking me if the Amish spread the good news of the Kingdom like they do. While we agreed that the Amish don’t go around door to door like the witnesses do that fact alone is not enough to convince me that they are the one true religion. Neither does their grandiose claims of Jehovah’s Witnesses being around since Bible times. In spite of their claims, their religion did not exist prior to Russell in the 1800’s.

    However, again, taking the conversation back to my original topic, I offered him this. If he could somehow prove to me that their current understanding of their blood doctrine is somehow indeed backed up by scripture or, barring that, prove to me that Watchtower is indeed God’s one sole channel here on Earth, I will listen to him. He told me that he could provide me some information but that it would be up to me to accept it. “That’s fine,” I said, “what is important is that the information provides inescapable proof that the blood doctrine is truly support by scripture or, barring that, that the information he provides proves inescapably that the Watchtower is God’s one sole channel. There should be no way out.” In other words, it should be air tight.

    We ended the conversation on that note. I am not sure if he is even going to try to get that information for me. He sounded as if he realized that he was not going to convert me and may have decided in his mind that he was going to ‘brush the dust off his feet.’ After the conversation, I felt real bad for how it went. He is a nice guy and I did not want to get into any kind of sparring match with him or what not. I just wanted to express to him that I did not see the point of our continued study if he was not going to answer my questions concerning blood. On the other hand, if he can prove the selection by Christ in 1919, that would be a bonus.

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    Also, let me add that before the conversation ended I explained to him why I found the blood doctrine most frightening. I told him that if I became a witness, I would have to refuse a blood transfusion for myself or my loved ones. He replied, "Well no one died from that. Some people die even with a transfusion." (I mean are you kidding me?!?!) I said, "I've read articles where people have died because of the refusal of blood. Also, are you aware of an article in a 1994 Awake called Youths who put God first? It speaks of kids fighting with doctors to refuse a blood transfusion and going as far as pulling the needle out their arm. What kind of a religion would teach children to do these things? I find that very frightening indeed. I cannot call it anything else other than martyrism."

    "Well even if we lose our life we have that hope of an everlasting one but if we try to save our life now we may lose our everlasting one," he said. "Do you really believe that you can lose your everlasting life because of a blood transfusion?" I asked. "Yeah," he said. "I'm sorry, but as far as I know, the Bible speaks of only one unpardonable sin, and it is not a blood transfusion," I concluded.

    That was when our conversation basically wound down.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Yup, I would call that MARKED.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Since you were never baptized, you'll get a pass. You're still a potential convert. In fact, they want to be careful not to stumble you.

    You explained yourself very well.

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    Don't feel bad for how it went, you told him exactly what he needs to do to prove his "truth" to you. He will either dive in and come back with a stack of printouts for you, or he will give up.

    Thats a pretty delusional statement he made about "nobody dying from it" That was a great comeback with the Awake article!

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Wow, Gary Neal, way to stick to your guns!!!

    I especially liked:

    "I had a copy of this letter to the elders as well as a copy of this news article concerning blood transfusions that I wanted to give to Brother Hero. However, my oldest daughter got a hold of them and instead shoved them in the contribution box. Oops. ..."

    LOL!!

    And I thought this last response was exquisite:

    "Do you really believe that you can lose your everlasting life because of a blood transfusion?" I asked. "Yeah," he said. "I'm sorry, but as far as I know, the Bible speaks of only one unpardonable sin, and it is not a blood transfusion," I concluded. ..."
  • blondie
    blondie

    jws rarely listen to what anyone says to them. They are too busy thinking of their doctrine and what they will say next. A few times when I was a jw I actually got a few to see what the bible says not the WTS publications....but the WTS publications outvote the bible. I remember the WT conductor asking "and what do we base our beliefs on?" as he held up the WT. I thought the COBOE would crap his drawers as he grabbed the mike and said "the bible" but it was too late.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    LWT nailed it..

    Your still a potentual JW cult Member..

    They may decide to spend extra time with you now..

    Your willing to talk to them..

    ....................;-)...OUTLAW

  • LongHairGal
    LongHairGal

    garyneal:

    Wow, I love what you told him. I especially like the part where you pointed out to him that the JW religion did NOT exist until Russell's time.

    I always HATED it when JWs would try to take retro-active credit for being around centuries ago when the reality is that they are a rather modern invention !!! Ancient people are not around to defend themselves OR say how they feel about anything.

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    yea I remember studies like u. We mocked them and their faulty reasoning. It's a shiome but nothing you said will sink in. Be prepared for a scripture that speaks of having faith

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit