Also how can it be free will ? Jews and now Christians say god offered....
a) humans can obey god and see how things go
or
b) humans can rule by themselves and see things go
God gave them life... and warned them against what would bring them harm (eating of the tree of knowing good and bad). Consider that eating of Christ brings life, because He is the Life. What do you suppose eating of something bad is going to do for a person?
It was not really a 'lets see how things go' kind of deal.
They just made the choice to listen to someone other than God and eat from something that God warned them against eating from.
but that is not what happened, humans chose b
, god made them instantly imperfect,
But God didn't MAKE them imperfect. They did that to themselves. They sinned in disobeying God and not showing love... because of their own desires... and they ate of something that brought them harm.
but took them out of a paradise,
This vessel (body) cannot be in that paradise, as that is the spirtual realm. One needs a spiritual body to enter the spiritual, and they were given this vessel (the long garment of skin... that has sin and death in IT... so that the spirit dies not HAVE to die).
But if you cannot obey the rules of the house you have been brought into to govern, to the point where you might well trash that house and any other occupants who might come after you, should you be allowed to remain?
made them diseased and ill,
Again, they did that to themselves... by bringing sin and death into the world.
made them toil to survive and pained when giving birth AND gave them an inclination to do wrong, to sin.
What about Adam? His inclination to do wrong, to sin... came from within him, and not from God, not even from the flesh that he had not yet been given.
He made sure they failed according to the biblical account! He rigged the game in his favour like a dodgy fair stall attendant!
How so?
He warned them from the start.. eat and you will die.
How was that comparable (a to b) or free wiLl? Option a did not equal option b!
Free will would have been to leave them be as perfect creatures in a paradise without god demanding attention and worship and petty rules about fruit like a spoilt child. How do you not see the idiocy of this bronze age human explination for life, death, illness, birth pains, strugglies for life in a harsh enviroment and human interaction.
But it was not God who made them 'less than perfect'; they did that to themselves.
Think of fruit in the same way you might in this: 'by their fruit you will know them'.
Think also of how one can eat of Christ.. and have life.
The tree of life = Life. Eating the fruit of the tree of life brings life.
Subsequently, eating the fruit of something that is bad... brings that bad into yourself.
***** Eden is equivelant to putting a mouse in a maze with the option of left or right and calling it free will, where as free will would really mean to take the mouse out of the maze....
It was not a maze though... just a warning of something that did exist... and not to eat from that which does cause harm.
FREE WILL DOES NOT EXIST. If you lived the last 24hrs over sgain (without knowing you were) you would make the exact same desicions as you did the first time for the exact same reasons. External influences and past experiences contribute to the desicions you make , you will always make the same desicions in life...,therfore how could a god judge you for them ? There is no crossroads... On tuesday at 8:13am on 0ct 1st 2013 you will always fancy cornflakes for breakfast, because you are hungry, your wife put the box out on the table, you saw a cornflakes advert on tv the night before etc etc etc etc no different to deciding to steal a car, you needed to pay rent, you saw a car you knew you could steal as your uncle taught you some weeks back and he told you where to take it, you think about it being wrong, you think about how it will solve your money problems...*smash*...you break the window... Replayed over snd over that person will ALWAYS steal the car everytime. How can you be judged for inevitible actions? Adam and Eve would always eat the fruit!
Becasue of what is in them, yes. But people can LEARN from their choices and consequences... n so that on another day, having learned the hard way instead of listening to the truth, they may make another decision.
Walking by sight (experiencing the consequence) instead of walking by faith (listening to the one teaching you what is good and what is harmful)
By the way this is not fate or pre-written destiny, it is a philosophical free will topic called DETERMINISM.
Stick in your heels and scream that free will exists all you wish, but it is just words, neither daily life or the deal offered in eden was free will. Biologists theorised we evolved the assumption of free will as it is advantageous in our consideration of consequences. Hence when asked if he believed in free will, Hitchens replied ironically "no but I have no choice but to believe it"
It isnt complicated ....stop fighting these obvious biblical flaws! ... Start being honest with yourself. Spending years looking for loopholes in peoples comments so as to not answer them or quoting an out of context shepherd/fishermans reply from ancient jewish scrolls , does not answer the issues it just allows you to throw a blanket over such questions in your mind.
Does that mean that no one is responsible for crimes that they commit, or bad decisions that they make? They had no choice in the matter?
You are humble, sweet and loyal tec, you are intelligent and dedicated.... But you repeatedly cover your eyes and ears and play dumb when ever someone gets close to what you have decided to put on a pedastal as absoloute truth, above all other logic, reasoning and evidence. Don't deny that,
Thank your for your kind words, Snare (though there are many who would disagree, even me much of the time... though I can be those things at times)... though I must deny what you have said about covering eyes and ears, because I am here listening and responding, etc.
I have seen you reason from the bible over evidence many times. that is your chloice, and I am sad to see people do it, for in doing so they switch off their minds in my opinion. That being said you can, but dont keep dipping into logic, reasoning, philosophy and science when you already know your beleifs contradict them and that you hold such human mechanisms for truth below the scrolls you have decided are from god and therefore above modern means of enlightenment. The conflicts in this stance are obvious immediately, for the bible is constantly proven false in sll areas...history, science, medicine etc.
Snare, it is Christ I follow, and not the bible... and I will disregard something in the bible (or an interpretation of it), if it is in conflict with Christ.
There is OBVIOYSLY nothing wrong with having FAITH in your beliefs, but dont diminish that faith and climb into hot water by trying to find ways to make your faith...FACT. By taking a stand with the bible, you can only have faith and leave the facts to those who hold science and reasoning over religious texts And at best marry facts of modern man with what is said in the bible. But you can't try to use the bible to outweigh conflicts with modern facts, not for everyone that rejects your holy book of choice.
I don't have faith in my beliefs... what good is that? It is kind of circular, isn't it?
I have faith in Christ.
many scientists are religious and square their science away by admitting the bible is simply wrong, whether it be adam and eve 6000 yrs ago and free will or talking donkeys or men with super strength from their long hair etc....
Again, please understand that my faith is not in the bible... nor do I consider it inerrant or the Word of God (that is Christ), or all literal or all inspired.
But people don't like that stance either ; )
I must say that I would have loved to study science as you have (and would if I had the time and money... but I do not have both of these, lol)... for the same reason that I wanted to read the bible. So that men could not fool me into believing that it states something or means something or implies something... that it actually does not. So that I would not be fooled by opinions, in other words, and falsehoods. I have no fear of science, and know that it is not in conflict with God, and so it can be exciting and even revealing as to the how/why of some things that God did or taught; including understanding things that are yet to come.
The choice is not science or God. Never has been... except in the minds of men.
Peace to you!
tammy
