Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One 754 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Acknowledgment supersedes. Therefore it is neither an opinion nor conclusion to know God existence unless you have otherwise been there, so acknowledgement based in faith.


    What do you mean by "acknowledgement?" Also, in your statement above are you only representing yourself or everyone that believes in God?

    Therefore it is neither an opinion nor conclusion to know God existence

    Opinion, conclusion, and belief can all mean the same thing an interpretation. Maybe wrong or maybe right but regardless it is not knowledge because you don't know for sure because "you were not there."

    Know means as you have said, if you mean what I think you mean, that one has something in his pocket, that he has heard it from "Mr. Ed". Not be be confused with the delusion of believing one knows. Some people think that they know and that is what they believe.

    Trying to prove what you know to others is a different animal.

    unless you have otherwise been there.

    I think that you mean that "if you have been there" sort of speak ,then you know and what you know is not an opinion or believed to be true or a conclusion..

    Belief, opinion, conclusion involve thinking process. Knowing something to be true involves observing it or measuring it some way indisputably.
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    1YOU CAN JUDGE the God that you have chosen to2 believe in. In fact, you already have done, if you think about it.

    Justice and sentimentality are 2 different animals.

    1That depends on what you mean by" judge" 2 I think you mean worship. This is what I meant by" judge" in my post that you are responding to: When an entity is accused of evil based on a moral code, even an indictment is not an adjudication. A trial is needed and the defense must be allowed to present its case (except in the outback) if the verdict is to be fair and just. Every coin has two sides.

    I think that the author of this thread is referring to 2 types of animal suffering, 1 the suffering that comes from the nature of being an animal (being prey for example) 2 the pain that animals suffer just as all living things on earth suffer including people.

    Some years ago, I was going to my car parked on a city block and before getting into my car, before my eyes I saw a squirrel on the sidewalk next to my car. The creature was in agony. It seemed to me that somehow it had fallen from the tree and landed on the concrete breaking his limb-the bone protruding from his raw flesh. First thing I did was to cry out to the God that I worship and asked him to have mercy and compassion on the beast. I could not just close my eyes and drive away. It would not be just. I had two choices, 1 to kill it and put it out of its misery or 2 to get it some help. I am not in the business of rescuing animals and feeding the feral cats in the area but I decided to take the wild animal to get help. I killed the whole day doing it.

    When we choose a friend, we "judge"(as you say) that friend as we observe his actions; We form conclusions and feelings in our minds. I know a good friend because he has always been loyal and good TO ME.

    Many many years ago I was told that two enemy soldiers were captured and put in prison in the USA. One soldier made a deal that he would betray his country if given asylum and good treatment. The other soldier said that he was no martyr and could break if he was tortured but that given the choice that he would never betray his people. It was pointed out to him how bad his people were. He responded that he did not know all of the facts about what is bad but that his job was to kill the enemy in the battlefield because he was soldier not a judge. Time passed the war came to an end both soldiers were released. The traitor asked for the asylum he was promised, it was denied. They told him:"we cant trust you." Ironically he was betrayed too. They sent both soldiers back. The loyal soldier later applied for an immigrant visa . It was granted.

    If you do not believe that God exists, you should not even be here. This is not for you.This is for theists. This discussion is moot for you. And if that is the case then the question asked on this thread is a rhetorical one, trying to show that God does not exist because he allows evil.

    Either God exists or he does not. Whether you believe it or not. And if he does, whether you choose to worship him or not does not change that he exists. Do you know?

  • WheninDoubt
    WheninDoubt

    Sorry Cofty for butchering your handle. But seeing your comments in other topics, I guess your assertion on the English language forsakes you to. However, it seems as an excommunicated witness (DF), you have forgotten social grace and proper etiquette to interact with certain people, but I do understand your bitterness and hatred.

    Then you have just answered your own conundrum from creation to evolution. Both views are arbitrary.

    That premise has one principle, point of origin. To creationist it starts with human life. Does that mean that the universe didn’t have more time of existence before 6000 years, of course not? That’s the fallacy of not understanding the construct as a whole. That assertion is based on the biblical text found in 2 Peter 2:8 the context of Christ Judgment. However that only applies to when man became imperfect not before when he roamed in the Garden of Eden. An endless amount of time could have passed because time had no relevancy. Another hypothesis can be argued, while God’s creation dwelled it that garden, the rest of the earth was inhabited by let’s say dinosaurs which man was impervious to. Farfetched, not really. The lack of understanding of biblical accounts attest to that. The biblical creation of Genesis started with vegetation on the third day. Genesis 1:11-13, Creation of creatures started on the fifth day Genesis 1:20, here is the hypothesis, evidence does not show how long in-between that time to the time God’s further creations started, passed. The next creation was wild animals and domestic, flying creatures (birds) and creeping animals. No time conclusion. Certain of creation could have already be recycled if they had become destructive in the eyes of their creator. The last of Creation was Man which happened toward the end of the fifth day to start the six Genesis 1:26-31. The other mistake is to think the animal kingdom was formed to be carnivorous. Genesis 1: 29 attest to that. While the bible doesn’t describe the animal kingdom being perfect? It does relate how man was to keep them subjection and subdue the earth. That happened after man sinned and an animal was used as a pawn. So just like man adapted, so did the animal kingdom. The animal kingdom the necessity to feed on each other due to the lack of food. The diseases and other horrific acts introduced to the animal kingdom is man-made. So man needs to take responsibility for ALL the destructive nature it has done and made, and not God.

    Evolution is at best a predication based on hypnosis, conjecture, and theories. All that can be discovered cannot be explained by mere conclusions man has made through computation. The point of origin for evolution was the big bang theory, now that is being challenged. Now science speculate there was no big bang, the universe just was. A similar proposition made from creationist about God. Evolution expresses how man evolved to its present state. You would think with that intelligent design man would not be as destructive as it has been, due to learning from their mistakes. Evolution by natural selection. Science therefore has not explained cloning that is man-made. Evolutionist make many attempts to minimize the lack of true facts it actually has, and finds a need to attack those with sound hypothesis.

    Unthinkable as it may be, humanity, every last person, could someday be wiped from the face of the Earth. We have learned to worry about asteroids and super volcanoes, but the more-likely scenario, according to Nick Bostrom, a professor of philosophy at Oxford, is that we humans will destroy ourselves. The Pauli exclusion principle

    I much rather have faith in an invisible entity than leave it up to man that is slowly killing this planet that won’t have the ability to regenerate itself with all the contamination, plus many important facts on biblical events have been confirmed through archeology.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Evolution is at best a predication based on hypnosis, conjecture, and theories.

    No its a fact based on an overwhelmingly large body of evidence from multiple interconnected fields of science. It is as certain as the fact that the earth is not flat. Please tell me which books on evolution you have read. My guess is that you have read none at all and yet you feel qualified to express an opinion about it.

    All that can be discovered cannot be explained by mere conclusions man has made through computation.

    Everything in biology can only be understood on the foundation of evolution.

    The point of origin for evolution was the big bang theory, now that is being challenged.

    No it isn't. Evolution explains how every living thing diverged from a common ancestor. What came before LUCA has nothing to do with evolution.

    Your proposed "explanations" of the Genesis accounts of creation are risible.

    The animal kingdom the necessity to feed on each other due to the lack of food. The diseases and other horrific acts introduced to the animal kingdom is man-made

    You have utter contempt for the most basic facts. The most compelling arguments against theism often result from theists themselves.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    If you do not believe that God exists, you should not even be here. This is not for you.This is for theists. This discussion is moot for you. And if that is the case then the question asked on this thread is a rhetorical one, trying to show that God does not exist because he allows evil.

    How else will theists know when their arguments are irrational without someone to point them out?

    Then you have just answered your own conundrum from creation to evolution. Both views are arbitrary.

    Evolution is evidence based and has multiple lines of evidence, predictive power and underpins modern biology and medicine.

    Creationism has zero evidence.

  • budbayview
    budbayview

    Great question, and many good thoughts and relative side discussions such as evolution and creation.

    So, why can’t evolution be a tool? Although we can probably argue this till the cows come home, there is room for many hypotheses that will satisfy science and the theist simultaneously. Personally, I subscribe to logic, and science; however, that has positioned my thinking for an intelligent designer. What Cofty wrote “Animals are perfectly designed”, albeit supporting his argument for evolution, is in fact correct. Although to design, someone must act as designer. The deeper I study the biology of the human body, it becomes relatively clear that this did not happen by chance. The DNS RNA structure and programming clearly demonstrated a well-engineered model for cellular proliferation. The argument for stem cells alone, and their ability to morph into multiple cell types essentially through programming demonstrates genius of engineering. That said, I have also studded evolution and can see where within species, or as one species takes president over another, or when adaptation to survive in a changing environment is required that this is great example of programed engineering at the highest level. Think about this for a minute, if you had to design a lifeform to adapt to a changing environment, you would program in evolution to allow for these variables for its survival. It is not a slight on creationist, but rather shows the magnitude of intelligence that engineered the universe and all life. Now, I do not subscribe to humans or life evolving from the primordial goo, which is stretch for me.

    The Big-bang, theory has relevance too for the creationist. We do it all the time when we use high explosives to start nuclear fission. So why couldn’t the universal engineer set up the physics, time, etc, to create and perpetuate matter into existence and start the underlying processes to develop what we know as the universe?

    To the specific question, “Theists, why does God allow suffering ..specifically, the suffering of animals.”

    In my opinion, collateral damage. I will further that thought tomorrow…it could be lengthy.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Although to design, someone must act as designer.

    To say "the design of animal" is not implying a designer.

    The deeper I study the biology of the human body, it becomes relatively clear that this did not happen by chance.

    Evolution isn't "by chance".

    The DNS RNA structure and programming clearly demonstrated a well-engineered model for cellular proliferation.

    How so?

    That said, I have also studded evolution and can see where within species, or as one species takes president over another, or when adaptation to survive in a changing environment is required that this is great example of programed engineering at the highest level.

    What, specifically, are you thinking is programmed engineering by a designer?

    The Big-bang, theory has relevance too for the creationist. We do it all the time when we use high explosives to start nuclear fission. So why couldn’t the universal engineer set up the physics, time, etc, to create and perpetuate matter into existence and start the underlying processes to develop what we know as the universe?


    Sure. But... there is zero evidence for it.

  • budbayview
    budbayview

    Viviane, your questions in italic, my response below.

    To say "the design of animal" is not implying a designer.

    In the context Cofty’s writing, is does. He referenced attributes of the animal and all attributes have a specific purpose. Thus there is relationship between purpose (requirements) and the specific attribute. Additionally, according to the definitions at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/design is does imply a designer.

    Evolution isn't "by chance".

    That depends on which evolutionary theory we are discussing, but let me rephrase. The deeper I study the biology of the human body, it becomes relatively clear that it is engineered and designed and has not evolved from nonadaptive causes, mutation or genetic drift (i.e. by chance).

    How so?

    The complexity and purpose of stem cell generation is pure genius. It is simply biological coding, the structure of the cell can be modified by giving it a new set of instructions (DNA/RNA). If one were to support the requirement of creating a type of cell that can be used over and over and morph into different cell types to fit a multitude of uses, what would be the most efficient way to accomplish this? By keeping the basic biologic structure and changing the program or instruction set. The coding (DNA/RNA) is a program design that when understood, (not that I claim to) has all the hallmarks of an intelligent creator, it was done with intent, engineered to exacting specifications.

    What, specifically, are you thinking is programmed engineering by a designer?

    This question has a hook and part of it represent the underlying fundamental issue of evolution versus intelligent design. Although, I do not deny the evidence of evolutionary factors on many organisms, the fact remains that there is no empirical evidence to support evolution jumping species. In other words, a fish is fish, a mammal is a mammal and humans did not evolve from some aquatic species. Evolution through natural selection is nothing more than adaption through breeding to generate the required traits for survival within a species. Whether this process is preprogrammed or a deliberate attempt from a higher power to propagate a species may be debatable. For example the process of humans selecting a desirable mate is built into our subconscious. The desirable physical traits in a male exhibit the resulting performance. Such as what a typical female is attracted to, tall, strong facial features, broad shoulders, muscular, and masculine features represent higher levels of the male hormone testosterone. This hormone is a key marker for reproduction success, and aggressive behavior. Known or unknown, we are breeding success or failure by the choices we make subconsciously. What Darwin witnessed concerning his theory of natural selection was a symptom, not the root cause. He did not identify the source of the behavior, I say the source is God.

    Sure. But... there is zero evidence for it.

    That is why I started by saying, “we can probably argue this till the cows come home.” However my point is that it is plausible, and actually more reasonable to theorize that if the universe came into existence as the Big Bang, it did so by the initiation of the creator as opposed to just happening. Nothing “just happens” which is why we have science, to study and provide answers to the “why”. From the first that man could write, he wrote of creation, this is a fact. The Sumerians, Mesopotamians, Babylonian’s, Egyptians, Greeks, Hindus, Aztecs, and Mayans all spoke of creation and Gods with names. Their only debate was one of whom worshiped who, and whom had the support of their superior and supreme God. They did not debate “if” God existed or “if” God created the universe or man. It is only recently that man has found the need to exclude God from the narrative and hypotheses alternative answers to the “why”.

    I like what Voltaire said, "What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason.” (FAITH. - Voltaire, The Works of Voltaire, Vol. IV (Philosophical Dictionary Part 2) [1764]

  • WheninDoubt
    WheninDoubt

    No its a fact based on an overwhelmingly large body of evidence from multiple interconnected fields of science. It is as certain as the fact that the earth is not flat. Please tell me which books on evolution you have read. My guess is that you have read none at all and yet you feel qualified to express an opinion about it.

    Everything in biology can only be understood on the foundation of evolution.

    You have utter contempt for the most basic facts. The most compelling arguments against theism often result from theists themselves.

    Cofty, I am sorry to say, I only have over 200 GB of stored knowledge. From every aspect of life. Opinions that are derived from every point of view. Atheism has nothing on me. However the discussion is not about one person, it’s about understanding the knowledge we acquire. Questions that theism as you express can only be an identified by theists themselves. However improvable, I have not lost respect for your opinion as you have with mine. The questions below are questions that still surround the science community, even though they have not had the ability to answer with certainty. A study done in the 30’s to put curtain questions to rest were conducted to form life from all the biological ingredients that make up life. The result was they could not. The scientist that conducted the experiment acknowledged there had to be a higher intelligence to have formed life.

    Eric Delson - Encyclopedia of Human Evolution and Prehistory [1999]

    Evolution_ The Cutting Edge Gui - Manganiello, Joe

    Frederick E. Grine - The First Humans; Origin and Early Evolution of the Genus Homo

    Richard G. Bribiescas - Men. Evolutionary and Life History [2008]

    Richard Dawkins-The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution

    The Knowledge Encyclopedia – 2013

    HARUN YAHYA- New Research Demolishes Evolution

    Works of: Rama Shankar Singh, Ph.D, Charles Robert Darwin, Peter R. Grant, Michael Ghiselin, Alan Turing, Niels Bohr, Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, etc.

    When Charles Darwin introduced the theory of evolution through natural selection 143 years ago, the scientists of the day argued over it fiercely, but the massing evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology and other fields gradually established evolution's truth beyond reasonable doubt. Today that battle has been won everywhere--except in the public imagination.

    Embarrassingly, in the 21st century, in the most scientifically advanced nation the world has ever known, creationists can still persuade politicians, judges and ordinary citizens that evolution is a flawed, poorly supported fantasy. They lobby for creationist ideas such as "intelligent design" to be taught as alternatives to evolution in science classrooms. As this article goes to press, the Ohio Board of Education is debating whether to mandate such a change. Some antievolutionists, such as Philip E. Johnson, a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley and author of Darwin on Trial, admit that they intend for intelligent-design theory to serve as a "wedge" for reopening science classrooms to discussions of God.

    Besieged teachers and others may increasingly find themselves on the spot to defend evolution and refute creationism. The arguments that creationists use are typically specious and based on misunderstandings of (or outright lies about) evolution, but the number and diversity of the objections can put even well-informed people at a disadvantage.

    To help with answering them, the following list rebuts some of the most common "scientific" arguments raised against evolution. It also directs readers to further sources for information and explains why creation science has no place in the classroom.

    1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.
    Many people learned in elementary school that a theory falls in the middle of a hierarchy of certainty--above a mere hypothesis but below a law. Scientists do not use the terms that way, however. According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth.

    In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of the fact of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.

    All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain.

    2. Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest.

    3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.

    4. The disagreements among even evolutionary biologists show how little solid science supports evolution.

    5. If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

    6. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth.

    The origin of life remains very much a mystery, but biochemists have learned about how primitive nucleic acids, amino acids and other building blocks of life could have formed and organized themselves into self-replicating, self-sustaining units, laying the foundation for cellular biochemistry. Astrochemical analyses hint that quantities of these compounds might have originated in space and fallen to earth in comets, a scenario that may solve the problem of how those constituents arose under the conditions that prevailed when our planet was young.

    Creationists sometimes try to invalidate all of evolution by pointing to science's current inability to explain the origin of life. But even if life on earth turned out to have a nonevolutionary origin (for instance, if aliens introduced the first cells billions of years ago), evolution since then would be robustly confirmed by countless microevolutionary and macroevolutionary studies.

    7. Mathematically, it is inconceivable that anything as complex as a protein, let alone a living cell or a human, could spring up by chance.

    8. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that systems must become more disordered over time. Living cells therefore could not have evolved from inanimate chemicals, and multicellular life could not have evolved from protozoa.

    9. Mutations are essential to evolution theory, but mutations can only eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features.

    10. Natural selection might explain microevolution, but it cannot explain the origin of new species and higher orders of life.

  • cofty
    cofty
    What Cofty wrote “Animals are perfectly designed”, albeit supporting his argument for evolution, is in fact correct

    That is twisting my words.

    In biology "design" simply refers to the correlation between form and function.

    I will read the rest of your posts later but I hope it improves.

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