Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One 754 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    Was ancient life really free from sickness and suffering?
    "Fossils of ancient creatures have been found that show tell-tail signs of severe injury, infection and disease. Some animals are known to have perished in mud pits, volcanic explosions, and global natural disasters. Fossils have even been found of animals that died giving birth.
    All evidence indicates that ancient life was exactly as it is today - brutal, violent, painful, and short. This, Jehovah's Witnesses must believe, was the perfect creation of God."www.jwbeliefs.com/jehovahs-witnesses-believe-animal-suffering-and-death/
    Has anyone used this page to reason with a JW?Please let us know if you have, or would consider doing so.
  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    Just to tie the threads together..

    Discussion continuing here:

    www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/424250001/yahwehs-wonderful-creation#/420770003

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    I'm not quite sure the JWs believe that animals will be resurrected, but most theists believe man has a spirit and many believe that animals have spirits. If true, then suffering is a temporal part of life. Because of the fall of man, suffering came into the world; and because of the atonement, Christ is able to wipe the tear from every eye. In short, there are no long term psychological effects from suffering. When Jesus, himself, suffered in the garden, he knew that his suffering would transcend the suffering of every human and animal that had lived, was living or would live on Earth. He specifically asked to have that cup removed; however, it had to be or the creation and fall would have been in vain.

    Many people and animals have suffered worse than they did at death, but they survived and many led normal productive lives. As for the animals and humans who didn't survive in the flesh, they continued to survive in the spirit, as the apostle Peter noted of those who perished in the flood; for they were put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. We'll always remember the pain, but we won't be troubled by it. I've read many near death experiences and believe this life somehow improves us. In truth, most theists believe the soul is immortal and that suffering is ultimately something designed to make us better.

  • prologos
    prologos
    Cold Steel: "-- suffering is ultimately something designed to make us better." wow, what an admission, your designer god is either a monster or an incompetent, most likely you designed him?
  • prologos
    prologos
    To this deist, the suffering, physical or emotionally, associated with death, is not a deliberately designed feature to serve spiritual development, but the byproduct of a successful, alert nervous system that serves to protect the organism when attacked, or when in danger, including the pain-numbing terror response.
  • cofty
    cofty

    Cold Steel reminds us that christianity is a sadistic death cult.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    Cold Steel 9 days ago
    I'm not quite sure the JWs believe that animals will be resurrected..

    They do not, I assure you.

    According to the Watchtower, this short and often painful existence is all that animals have.

    "Though animals die in the same manner as man, they do not share his hope of a resurrection."

    http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000281

    You also stated the following, as though it were a fact:

    As for the animals and humans who didn't survive in the flesh, they continued to survive in the spirit, as the apostle Peter noted of those who perished in the flood;

    Your claim has no evidence whatsoever to support it.

    Furthermore, animals receiving a resurrection after they were killed by God in the Flood, is not even stated in the Bible.

    If you wish to contribute something useful to this thread, please can you at least do a little research and provide us with some evidence for your claim, or maybe even read the book you are citing as a reference (ie the Bible).

    -----------

    Footnote:

    * For anyone who is unsure of the verses that he's referred to, but not even bothered to quote, here they are*

    "18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

    19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day,..."

    www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/1-peter/3/

    "Some people believe this passage teaches that during the three days his body was in the tomb, Jesus went into the spirit-world of the imprisoned lost. At that time, according to this theory, the Lord preached the gospel to those who died lost during the time of Noah’s flood."

    www.christiancourier.com/articles/99-preaching-to-the-spirits-in-prison

    Completely irrelevant to the topic of animal suffering, of course..

    But don't blame me, he brought it up. Just so everyone knows what he is referring to. (As far as I can tell)

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    Defender: Your claim has no evidence whatsoever to support it.
    Christians have varying views on this topic. As I see it, Paul put it plainly when he said, "For in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)

    Many take this "all" to be humans only, but since animals inherited death through Adam, I believe they will inherit life through the atonement. Jehovah's Witnesses may not buy into that line of thinking, but there's nothing in the Bible that definitively states whether animals have spirits. I think one could, through observation, conclude that if man has a spirit, then animals also have spirits.

    Death comes to all, men and animals, and animals fulfill the measure of their creation. Men and animals also are intelligent, and in my theology intelligence and matter can change, but they can't be created. Being intelligent, the spirits of all men and animals, plus insects, fish and other living things all existed as spirits in premortality. They now exist as part of man's exile and will rise with him in the resurrection.

    There also are numerous references to animals in the accounts of those who had near death experiences. One of the most credible (to me) described the spirit world as rich in color, vibrancy and peace. He wrote:

    The towering peaks boasted splendid jagged crags and massive cliffs. A gorgeous waterfall descended from thousands of feet on high to a quiet pool below. The pool rested in a serene meadow flanked by green foliage, which progressed into a variety of colors in the bushes and trees. A mighty golden eagle soared above us. The peace was so enthralling that no one would ever want to leave.

    As I looked upon the beauty, my eyes were suddenly caught by a mighty lion breaking through the bushes into the meadow. He looked directly at me. My immediate reaction was one of fear and I tensed. I looked at [my guide]. He chuckled, then turned to look at the lion. The lion began to walk right towards me until he stood exactly by my left side.

    Suddenly, it was as if I heard the lion’s spirit communicating to me, in my mind. “It’s all right. Don’t be afraid. All God’s creations are safe in this kingdom.”

    I felt a love being radiated from this mighty beast. Randy turned to me and said, “Go ahead. Pet him.”

    The animal leaned its head to the back of my hand and rubbed its mane against it. I slowly raised my hand and began to stroke his long coarse hair. It was interesting to me that, although we were both spirits, I could still feel the hair. ... Suddenly I looked up and saw a mother deer walking across the meadow not more than twenty feet behind the lion. She had a fawn at her side. They calmly looked at the lion; the lion looked at them. There was nothing but peace between them.... I was impressed by the instant feeling of love I felt for all animal life. I knew of a certainty that God loves these creatures. It is important that we show respect for them. As another lesson had been deeply implanted in my mind, we took our leave and continued down the stone pathway stretching into the distance. (The Message, by Lance Richardson)

    Of course this is evidence of nothing, but these accounts frequently refer to animals and their increased, or enhanced, intelligence in the spirit world.

    What is indisputable, however, is that when you look at the body of a deceased animal, it's clear that something is missing. Call it the spirit or the animating spark, a body lacks it at death and even children can readily see that a dead body in many ways appears artificial. Thus, it depends on one's views regarding the scope of the atonement. Bottom line is that the Bible doesn't answer the question of whether animals have spirits, so the JWs can only guess. I do find it significant, however, that the Lord uses animals so much in his prophetic visions. Certainly if we can love animals, and they us, and if they are noble enough to sacrifice their own lives for us, I'd say they should qualify for a resurrection.
    "Some people believe this passage teaches that during the three days his body was in the tomb, Jesus went into the spirit-world of the imprisoned lost. At that time, according to this theory, the Lord preached the gospel to those who died lost during the time of Noah’s flood." (See I Peter 3:18-20)
    You're right. This doesn't refer to animals. Animals can't sin and they certainly don't need preaching to. Also, most Christians regard the resurrection as the reuniting of the body and the spirit. Man goes to the spirit world to await the resurrection. The early church father, Origen, in trying to reconstruct the teaching of the apostles, wrote, "After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of learning or school of the spirits, in which everything they did on Earth will be made clear to them." He said in that environment we progress through definite steps or degrees. This also corresponds to many near death experiences, where people learn and progress through "life reviews." Our resurrection will be like Christ's resurrection. It will be a physical resurrection. "For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me have."



  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    Cold Steel

    since animals inherited death through Adam, I believe they will inherit life through the atonement.

    Animals have always died, since their beginning.

    Even if your above statement were true, which it is not, according to all available evidence.. it would be severely unjust.

    Why have animals had to suffer and die, then, according to your belief? (based on your assertion that animals did not die before Adam sinned, which is absurd).

    According to the Bible, Adam (mankind) was cursed by God to die, and that was only after he sinned.

    As you admit, animals have never sinned.

    So why would the curse of sin and death spread to animals?

    Romans 5:12

    12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned

    https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/romans/5/

  • Doubtfully Yours
    Doubtfully Yours

    Death is part of the circle of life. There will always be death in all forms and of all things; nothing is forever.

    DY

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit