Transubstantiation?

by leavingwt 64 Replies latest jw friends

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    Does anyone here accept the doctrine of transubstantiation? If so, please elaborate.

    Physical things contain spiritual realities. Through the Eucharist, we receive God in us, and yet at the same time, we are also in God.

    Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

    http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/eucha4.htm

    Transubstantiation

    by Frank J. Sheed

    Besides the Real Presence which faith accepts and delights in, there is the doctrine of transubstantiation, from which we may at least get a glimpse of what happens when the priest consecrates bread and wine, so that they become Christ's body and Christ's blood.

    At this stage, we must be content with only the simplest statement of the meaning of, and distinction between substance and accidents, without which we should make nothing at all of transubstantiation. We shall concentrate upon bread, reminding ourselves once again that what is said applies in principle to wine as well.

    We look at the bread the priest uses in the Sacrament. It is white, round, soft. The whiteness is not the bread, it is simply a quality that the bread has; the same is true of the roundness and the softness. There is something there that has these and other properties, qualities, attributes- the philosophers call all of them accidents. Whiteness and roundness we see; softness brings in the sense of touch. We might smell bread, and the smell of new bread is wonderful, but once again the smell is not the bread, but simply a property. The something which has the whiteness, the softness, the roundness, has the smell; and if we try another sense, the sense of taste, the same something has that special effect upon our palate.

    In other words, whatever the senses perceive-even with the aid of those instruments men are forever inventing to increase the reach of the senses- is always of this same sort, a quality, a property, an attribute; no sense perceives the something which has all these qualities, which is the thing itself. This something is what the philosophers call substance; the rest are accidents which it possesses. Our senses perceive accidents; only the mind knows the substance. This is true of bread, it is true of every created thing. Left to itself, the mind assumes that the substance is that which, in all its past experience, has been found to have that particular group of accidents. But in these two instances, the bread and wine of the Eucharist, the mind is not left to itself. By the revelation of Christ it knows that the substance has been changed, in the one case into the substance of his body, in the other into the substance of his blood.

    The senses can no more perceive the new substance resulting from the consecration than they could have perceived the substance there before. We cannot repeat too often that senses can perceive only accidents, and consecration changes only the substance. The accidents remain in their totality-for example, that which was wine and is now Christ's blood still has the smell of wine, the intoxicating power of wine. One is occasionally startled to find some scientist claiming to have put all the resources of his laboratory into testing the consecrated bread; he announces triumphantly that there is no change whatever, no difference between this and any other bread. We could have told him that, without the aid of any instrument. For all that instruments can do is to make contact with the accidents, and it is part of the doctrine of transubstantiation that the accidents undergo no change whatever. If our scientist had announced that he had found a change, that would be really startling and upsetting.

    The accidents, then, remain; but not, of course, as accidents of Christ's body. It is not his body which has the whiteness and the roundness and the softness. The accidents once held in existence by the substance of bread, and those others once held in existence by the substance of wine, are now held in existence solely by God's will to maintain them.

    What of Christ's body, now sacramentally present? We must leave the philosophy of this for a later stage in our study. All we shall say here is that his body is wholly present, though not (so St. Thomas among others tells us) extended in space. One further element in the doctrine of the Real Presence needs to be stated: Christ's body remains in the communicant as long as the accidents remain themselves. Where, in the normal action of our bodily processes, they are so changed as to be no longer accidents of bread or accidents of wine, the Real Presence in us of Christ's own individual body ceases. But we live on in his Mystical Body.

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    Chapter 6, tec. The oldest tradition is that St. John taught St. Polycarp and St. Ignatius and that Ignatius was one of the little children about whom Jesus said we must be like in order to gain the kingdom. This is most particularly shown in his letter to the church at Smyrna. It isn't very long, so you can see for yourself.

    As for what it tastes like, that is the distinction between essences and appearances that Aquinas goes into great philosophical lengths to discuss.

  • cofty
    cofty

    If somebody claimed that by saying the correct incantations their morning toast and orange juice turned into the actual flesh and blood of Elvis Presley we would not hesitate to judge their sanity.

    Millions of Catholics do something similar and claim that because its a really ancient belief and we are all supposed to respect it.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    As for what it tastes like, that is the distinction between essences and appearances that Aquinas goes into great philosophical lengths to discuss.

    Essences/appearances or substances/accidents. It is the same thing

    Even in marriage:

    "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"

    The accidents are the same, but the substance has changed.

  • maksym
    maksym

    As an Eastern Orthodox Christian I believe the bread and wine, are bread and wine, and the Actual body and blood of Christ. They are not symbolic.

    One of the seven Holy Mysteries of which the Catholics call a Sacrament.

    Peace

    Maksym

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    Plus, wouldn't it taste different than bread and wine if that were the case?

    Do you believe God (or the Holy Spirit, or Christ, etc) dwells within you Tec? If so (and I think you believe this), does it change your physical characteristics?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I don't accept it was the practice of early Christianity. Early Christianity is a relative term. I forget the dates you mentioned but the early church was NOT Roman Catholic. 300 years pass before there is an imperial church. My attention would be on scripture and clues from the surrounding cultures. Jewish belief would be important. There were probably big differences between the church in Jerusalem and the actual apostles and Paul's group.

    I am so tired of people stating the Roman Catholic Church is the early church. Certainly, the Roman Church becomes important. Most of the early councils originated in the Middle East and Northern African. 300 years is a vast time for doctrine to evolve. It would be interesting to truly know, with academic references and respect to credal statements how transubstiation developed.

    Whenever I receive communion, I believe Christ is actually present in a mystical sense that I cannot fully comprehend. Take eat, This is my body. can mean a wide range of things. I wish someone who is a knowledgeable Catholic would explain to me why transubstiation is so important. We eat communion wafers and drink wine. Jesus' body has deterioated. I assume. It seems that there is much difference between transubstiation and most Protestant religions. It seems a lot of quibbling, people being executed, over not much.

    I despise the Catholic control over women and their reproductive rights. Transubstantiation or not Transubstantiation is not important to me. It sounds like legalistic splitting of the hair. There is something key I do not understand. My father used to stay up all night preparing to beat Catholics over the head for Transubstantiation. I just do not see the fuss,particularly in this day and age. So many of my father's doctrinal disputes seem so lame to me. Mainstream Christianity agrees on so much. We should be in one broad communion. It seems a political quest for doctrinal purity. I don't see why it bothers Protestants too much. Of course, I'm Anglican. I think Anglo-Catholics believe it and then as you go down the food chain to low church its importance fades.

  • Think About It
    Think About It
    I think Anglo-Catholics believe it and then as you go down the food chain to low church its importance fades.

    I would love to hear more about your Anglo-Catholic then down the food chain low church theory. Please elaborate.

    Think About It

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I've heard you use the term high church. Now you use the term low church. I have no clue what that means. I'm with Think About It---can you elaborate?

    NC

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Low church is a term of distinction in the Church of England or other Anglican churches initially designed to be pejorative. During the series of doctrinal and ecclesiastic challenges to the established church in the 17th century, commentators and others began to refer to those groups favouring the theology, worship and hierarchical structure of Anglicanism (such as the episcopate) as the truest form of Christianity as 'high church'. In contrast, by the early 18th century those theologians and politicians who sought more reform in the English church and a greater liberalisation of church structure were called "low church".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_church

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