Transubstantiation?

by leavingwt 64 Replies latest jw friends

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  Sulla

  If somebody claimed that by saying the correct incantations their morning toast and orange juice turned into the actual flesh and blood of Elvis Presley we would not hesitate to judge their sanity.

  Had Elvis been raised from the dead in a way to preclude his ever dying again, had he dispensed the Paraclete to aid his Church, and had he died for our sins, perhaps we would view things differently.

  I don't accept it was the practice of early Christianity. Early Christianity is a relative term.

  Well, the early 2nd century should count as plenty early, even in your book, Band.
• 

  botchtowersociety

  That's a lot of theory and explanation over a few words in scripture. I wonder why the bible wasn't a bit more explanatory since it's author would have seen the utter confusion ahead. Ah well---must be a minor point.

  This is a very JW-type viewpoint. It is also very representative of an American viewpoint on Christianity, since American Christianity has contained strong strains of fundamentalist approaches to Scripture (which led to JWism). What you've said might be a problem for "Bible only" fundamentalists (a claim JWs also make for themselves), but for hundreds of millions of Christians, the Bible isn't a complete compendium defining the Christian faith. It isn't the only source of knowledge or truth about the Christian faith. It is a collection of writings addressing specific things at different places during different times. Before a canon of Scripture was defined, Christians had been living as a community for hundreds of years. The Christian church did not come from the Bible. The Bible came from the church.

  ...the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

  I do not believe the Christian faith is a "religion of the book." Christianity is a religion of the Word of God. The Word is not a written, mute, word in a book. It is one that is alive...and the church is also alive in communion with the Word.

  But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
• 

  Think About It

  Had Elvis been raised from the dead in a way to preclude his ever dying again, had he dispensed the Paraclete to aid his Church, and had he died for our sins, perhaps we would view things differently

  .

  Not advocating one belief over another......but, the Church of Elvis could probably come up with as much proof, and as much faith. Just sayin'.

  Think About It
• 

  Band on the Run

  The reference to transubstantiation. I'm not doubting that it is correct. Despite trying, I have no clear idea of what the discussion is. It seems to be a mathematical equation. May a Catholic explain in their own words what the difference is between transubstantiation and a understanding that Christ is Present in the Eucharist from a litigurical Protestant point of view.

  Is our purpose on this thread to endorse substantiation? Do we vote on it? Does the church give you brownie points in heaven for posting it here? I wish people would explain things in their own words. I come here for the community of people. Being lectured about transubstantiation is not my idea of fun but I would love to hear what members here feel.
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  botchtowersociety

  Is our purpose on this thread to endorse substantiation? Do we vote on it? Does the church give you brownie points in heaven for posting it here?

  Being lectured about transubstantiation is not my idea of fun but I would love to hear what members here feel.
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  mindseye

  I'm no Catholic by a long shot, but found this Transubstantiation stuff pretty far out, especially when Aquinas married the whole shebang with Aristotelian metaphysics. Methinks we get too caught up in the Fundie-JW/Hyper-rationalist paradigm (I know I sure have!), and often miss the multilayered, philosophically rich, metaphysic laden, sometimes MYSTICAL stuff found in some of these old religions. μετουσ?ωσις!
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  cofty

  Had Elvis been raised from the dead in a way to preclude his ever dying again, had he dispensed the Paraclete to aid his Church, and had he died for our sins, perhaps we would view things differently.

  Begging the question.
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  Sulla

  Actually, no, cofty. I'm simply pointing out that your comaprison is not valid, since we don't suppose Elvis was any of the things the Jesus is. Since claims to his divinity are antecedent to concepts like transubstantiation, a criticism like yours is simply a non sequitur.
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  Band on the Run

  How do we know Jesus is God? It is a matter of faith, which I believe. A recent book I read said that Arianism was competing for Europe against Trinitarian thoughts. My understanding is that it was a small group. Yet there were many Arians. It seemed to be based on geography. So your belief as to Christology depended on where you happened to live. Jesus is not clear in scripture. I've read the accounts carefully. There are hints in both directions. Trinity is an extrapolitoin of scripture. Arianism is too.

  I believe some Protestant and Orthodox churches are almost in alignment with Roman Catholics. They don't use the term Transubstantion. Christ is present. Are people condemned or Eucharist invalid b/c of splitting of minute hairs. I realize that more spartan Protestant groups, such as Quakers, Baptist have a different formulation. Yet they still believe Christ is present in some manner. It strikes me as legalistic. Every week I hear about "the mystery of the faith" when the emblems are consecrated.

  I believe I crave details b/c of the Witnesses. They have me much more rigorous and focused on the actual text. It is an occupational hazard. I do realize that when I try to ask a priest 20 questions to flesh out doctrine or do my own research, I am trying to avoid a born in status. I am also capable of understanding subtleties. JW insisted they had the complete truth. If you do not agree,, you have no merit. I have so many Bible and theology books in my bookcase. Yet I realize that knowledge of scripture, while n ice, is not the point. Following Jesus' commands in everyday life is the challenge. Also, some beliefs that Christianity developed were purposefully vague b/c disputes were present in the church. The victors write the history.
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  GromitSK

  Millions of Catholics do something similar and claim that because its a really ancient belief and we are all supposed to respect it.

  I'd certainly respect their right to hold the belief (no matter how illogical I think it is). The problems come when one tries to get others to believe the same thing, or argue it is rational to hold a particular belief. Then all bets are off as far as I can see. I sometimes get the impression that challenging beliefs is seen as something disrespectful - I can see that it could be done in a disrespectful way, but I can't see how such debates would be disrespectful in the own right (or should I say rite? ).

  I guess some people look for perceived insults as a way to stifle proper debate.