Transubstantiation?

by leavingwt 64 Replies latest jw friends

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  cofty

  Actually, no, cofty. I'm simply pointing out that your comaprison is not valid, since we don't suppose Elvis was any of the things the Jesus is. Since claims to his divinity are antecedent to concepts like transubstantiation, a criticism like yours is simply a non sequitur - sulla

  But why should anybody suppose Jesus was raised from the dead in a way to preclude his ever dying again ...dispensed the Paraclete to aid his Church, and ... died for our sins? There is as much evidence that Elvis is alive as there is for Jesus' resurrection. There is far more evidence for the miracles of Sri Sathya Baba than for those you attribute to Jesus.

  Transubstantiation is a doctrine that makes Scientology look rational.
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  designs

  Any relation to the cakes of Osiris.
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  james_woods

  This language is shocking. Who can listen to it?
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  Band on the Run

  We should respect people's faith. In the case of Roman Catholicism, it developed over a very long period of time. There had to beliefs already circulating for this to become a doctrine. If this is so important, Jesus should have clearly stated whether he was the son of man, son of God, and his messianic consciousness. When he presided over the Last Supper, he should have told us expressly. Creeds never sound elegant to me. All we know the words that the gospel writers impute to him.

  Since scripture is not express, we are all guessing. My father and most Witnesses were rabidly antiCatholic when I grew up. A certain fury was reserved for Catholic belief when logically, it should have extended to Protestant beliefs, too. I was in preschool when I was first told how utterly disgusting feeding on a cadaver is. Now that I am much older and exposed to the world, I see beauty in the doctrine. I am neither for it nor against it. It does seem that important to me.

  I just realized I don't know what the Witnesses teach about memorial emblems. Are they tokens? Since they don't believe Jesus is God, it places Christ being present much less important. Transubstantiation harkens to a faith that God sustains is, that we embrace God, receive grace. I no longer see it as a cannibalistic act. He is God, according to almost all Christians. Christ does not have a fleshly body in heaven. The Eucharist is a visible sign of his Presence. Many things may not sound completely logical to me but I view my faith as tradition handed down from generation after generation.

  I don't know what Luther or Calvin believed. The Eastern view is important, too. I know there is a slight difference between East and West.
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  Chariklo

  To be honest, I don't really understand why JW's place so much importance on the Memorial. I mean, it can only be an act of remembrance, with their beliefs, can't it? I know what Catholics believe and why each Mass, and Easter, and Holy Thursday, =The Last Supper=the Memorial are important, but not why JW's think it is.
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  cofty

  We should respect people's faith - BOTR

  Why?

  I respect other people and their right to believe any crazy thing they want, but how can you ask somebody to "respect" delusions?

  Truth matters, evidence matters. Faith is brain rot, its what keeps our relatives and friends in captivity to the borg.

  It is hypocrisy to criticise the insane doctrines of the Wathctower and then ask for respect for even crazier beliefs of another cult that just happens to be bigger and has more history.
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  Sulla

  But why should anybody suppose Jesus was raised from the dead in a way to preclude his ever dying again ...dispensed the Paraclete to aid his Church, and ... died for our sins? There is as much evidence that Elvis is alive as there is for Jesus' resurrection. There is far more evidence for the miracles of Sri Sathya Baba than for those you attribute to Jesus.

  Well, whatever, cofty. But this is what is making it completely beside the point. It's like arguing with a pacifist about whether the war with Iraq was right or wrong: he thinks all wars are wrong, so you can't have a discussion. That's what you are doing here: you figure all of Christianity is wrong and, therefore, all the doctrines associated with it are also wrong. But that's not this discussion.
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  cofty

  You are right Sulla I think all faith-based thinking is delusional but there is a spectrum of credibility.

  Transubstantiation is right up there with Xenu.
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  Sulla

  Well, then, you have a problem with Christianity from the very beginning. It has always been vaguely cannibalistic.
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  Band on the Run

  I might think the Book of Mormon makes the Witnesses a high class, intellectual religion but I would never go up to Mitt Romeny and ask if he was wearing his magic underwear. When I think about it, I am surprised that people on the campaign trail do not ask questions. If Obama was not up for 2 am phone calls, how is a man who believes Mormon teachings take such calls.

  When I am convinced of the purity of my own beliefs, I will disrespect. We need to have some respect to function as a civil society. Many times my progressive, academic beliefs have been mocked by fundamentalists, especially since I moved from atheist heaven to fundie heaven. I never know how to reply. I suck it up and want to believe that Jesus is giving me extra credit for keeping my mouth shut. Two wrongs don't make a right. When I was in utter agony, people with no pain would tell me to rejoice b/c God was doing a miracle in me. I could not keep my mouth shut in those circumstances.