Without God, Do Humans Have More Intrinsic Value Than Animals?

by leavingwt 64 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  botchtowersociety

  If it is a godless universe that has no values, then we make the values.

  A question for SBC:

  Is a cockroach life as valuable in his eyes as a human one?
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  If others determine intrinsic value...then the value is not intrinsic to the object but to the person doing the valuating.

  And if that is the case, Jews then had less intrinsic value than the guard dogs that kept them in order.

  I'm working with the notion that the intrinsic value of something is the value that that thing has “in itself,” or “in its own right". That would mean that it could not be stripped of value based on subjective opinion.

  Certainly if opinion deternines intrinsic value, then DNA must be rejected as an objective measure of that value to which countless aborted babies attest.
• 

  james_woods

  I'm working with the notion that the intrinsic value of something is the value that that thing has “in itself,” or “in its own right". That would mean that it could not be stripped of value based on subjective opinion.

  I don't think there is any such kind of "intrinsic value". Value is always subjective opinion of outside parties.

  A bar of gold would be less than valueless if it were stuck in your pocket and weighing you down while you were trying to keep yourself from drowning.
• 

  SweetBabyCheezits

  James Woods: The humans had the intrinsic value of life as humans - which was a greater intrinsic value than the life of the horse.

  So says the human. I'm guessing the horse would disagree if he could talk. Ah, but then if he could speak and had human intelligence, maybe his life would have the same intrinsic worth as James Woods? Or more since the horse can be ridden across the country... without complaining? :-)

  James Woods: And thus it has been all through human history.

  But see, that is the kind of justification I'm trying to avoid. I'd like to find a legit and consistent reason for valuing other species as lower but, again, I'm having difficulty.

  I hate to quote this to death but I think it could very well apply here:

  Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on "I am not too sure." - Mencken
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  "Value is always subjective opinion of outside parties."

  OK, but if intrinsic value is based on the notions of others, the word "intrinsic" is misleading and rather meaningless. The question then could have read:

  "Without God, do humans have more subjective value than animals?"

  And in that case, the phrase "Without God" becomes redundant, and the question could read:

  "Do humans value humans more than animals?"
• 

  bikerchic002

  World English Dictionary

  intrinsic or intrinsical (?n'tr?ns?k)
  — adj
  1.	of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent

  Within each species there is an inherented built in nature for hierachy. Only the strong survive among each species, humans included. Keep it simple, silly. Live and let live.
• 

  leavingwt

  Lore and Vanderhoven7 have both correctly pointed out that my original question is poorly worded. I must agree with them.
• 

  still thinking

  I think this is good enough for most of us. Further, if you and I enter the wilderness unarmed, the animals hold a similar view of us. They view us as 'fair game' for food, etc.

  You make a good point there leavingwt...maybe this just proves we are ALL animals after all. We view them as food, they view us as food. As much as we would like to think we have better morals or have evolved. In the end we are all just a part of the food chain.

  If we could get inside the mind of a tiger or lion we may discover that they are as arrogant as humans and think that they are indeed the chosen ones.
• 

  ohiocowboy

  As far as my feelings go, No. We are really just Animals though. Generally, I usually hold non-Human Animals in the same and sometimes higher esteem than I do Humans. In general, I feel that they have more pure motives than many (not all) Humans do. Given the choice, I make it a point to give to non-Human Animal charities, except for the occasional disaster contribution to the Red Cross.

  My Partner and I make it a point to be thoughtful to all Animals, and even the smaller beings, such as lizards and insects. When we are outside, we are careful to avoid stepping on ants, grasshoppers, pillbugs and just about any other insect we encounter on walkways or grass. Of course it's impossible to avoid sometimes, but at least we make an attempt. I have become a professional fly catcher when I find one in the house, and always let them back outside. The same goes for any other flying insect, moth or creepy crawly that we find in the house, with the exception of mosquitos and maybe the occasional spider-(if it is venomous) and if we for some reason can't catch one of the bugs, we make it a point to keep a bit of water out in a container so that they can at least drink if they need to until I am eventually able to catch and release them. Of course, if we were ever to get an infestation of an insect, we would have to take care of it, but it would be as painless as possible. Hopefully it never happens.

  Our home and garden has been, and is a haven for all types of creatures. Even though we live in the city, we have daily visitations of Birds, Squirrels, Possums, Bats, Lizards, Owls, LOTS of Coons and their babies, and they always end up leaving well fed and watered, and any injured are given antibiotics if possible, otherwise we catch and take them to a wildlife refuge to get treatment. Numerous stray or abused Dogs have used our home as a half way house until they are able to get back on their feet, and well enough to go to a no kill shelter for adoption.

  I have a soft spot for Animals and small creatures, and I feel that they have every right to be treated well by humans, no matter how small. Most of these creatures were here long before us, and hopefully will still be around if something were to ever happen to make the Human civilization extinct.

  Speaking of extinction, I am sickened that Humans have been responsible for many beautiful creatures to become extinct, often due to greed. Animals deserve utmost respect, and if we use them as food, they need to be treated with kindness and compassion, and when the day comes, it needs to be as quick and as painless as possible. I try not to eat much meat because of the way they are often treated, and if I have a chance to get protein in other foods like beans, etc I will opt for that instead of Animal meat.

  My love for Animals is strong. I would have gladly given my life for my Dog before She died. She really was that important to me.

  Sorry for the long post, but I love Animals very much!
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  I think your question is perfect as it stands LTW

  If the universe was designed purposefully, the creator determines value independent of our opinions.

  If the universe is the product of a non-directed or chance explosion, then we alone determine value.