Great discussion by you all. Don't have the time/intellect to wade into this one right now. But at the risk of being off topic, all this talk of meat (and the nihilistic/Nietzche post) reminded me of this little nugget:
Without God, Do Humans Have More Intrinsic Value Than Animals?
by leavingwt 64 Replies latest jw friends
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SweetBabyCheezits
Forget the F&DS - Shack provides food at the proper time! This is fav-worthy stuff. I laughed my meat off the whole time.
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"You're not understanding, are you? You're refusing to deal with what I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat."
"Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"***********
"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"
"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."
"I thought you just told me they used radio."
"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."
"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. -
biometrics
Only if they have gold fillings.
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Vanderhoven7
<<If the universe was designed purposefully, the creator determines value independent of our opinions.>>
When human value depends solely on man, opinions will vary, demonstrating that the value of human beings is not intrinsic. The lowest valuation, as history demonstrates, might look something like: the only good Indian, Communist, Jew, handicapped person is a dead one.
Christians believe that the value of man is absolutely intrinsic.... based on 3 alleged historical events: Creation, incarnation, and redemption. Man's value is determined by creation in the image of God; by incarnation; that God could become man, yet still retain His divinity, while redemption speaks to man's value as nothing else, since the price paid for man's redemption was infinite. For God so loved/valued humanity, that He gave His one and only.
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james_woods
It's easy to wave off something like this as trivial or silly when you sit at the top of the food chain. But what if that wasn't the case?
Then we would have to kill the imposters and enforce the food chain.
We can be humane to the lower forms when we are on top.
Gentle Ben would not have been so gentle if we were not on top.
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talesin
Thanks for opening this topic, LeavingWT, as it is one I have spent some time considering, and I have strong viewpoints about it.
First off, I like what Lore said:
Intrinsic value is a completely useless concept
Yes - it is subjective ... agreed.
I have come to (mostly) subscribe to the principle of Gaia,,, that the earth is one organism, and we are a part of it, along with all of the other species. Where would humans be without the cockroaches? the snakes? etc.
One thing I have learned, through personal experience, is that animals (for lack of a better word) have feelings, and memories,,, moreso than science has acknowledged in the past. This is not fanciful thinking on my part, and scientists are discovering/proving the truth about this.
It is (to me) the supreme arrogance of the human race, to believe that we are more important (or valuable) than other species. And yes, I do NOT think it's okay to torture and experiment on other species so that our medical research can progress.
It seems to me that superiority over the 'animals' is a religious construct --- god gave us 'dominion' over all other creations, so we have the right to 'do with them what we will'. This just feels so wrong to me.
tal
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still thinking
I'm not so sure Vanderhoven...when the value of human life depends on a 'God' it can be valued as a sacrafice, a source of power, labour for building temples, cannon fodder for spiritual cleansing. God has been the excuse for atrocities since the beginning of belief in a God.
When you remove a 'God' from the picture, humans really have no excuse for not respecting all living creatures...because we become equal. We all belong on the earth, we all play our part. Animals don't sacrafice (not that I know of anyway), maybe they are the ones that are morally superior. The only kill for food or defense. Not in the name of any God.
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still thinking
I agree with you tal...it is human arrogance...and religious ignorance.
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mP
Humans are placed above animals because though we lack physical strength and other physical attributes we counter this with machines and knowledge. Given this fact, we set the standards and value of things whether you agree or disagree, thats a fact of this world. Its sad that man thinks he can poison and destroy the environment, overfish etc but until something happens theres no force to change that.
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james_woods
Its sad that man thinks he can poison and destroy the environment, overfish etc but until something happens theres no force to change that.
Actually, "man" in general does not think that any longer - and probably never did.
It is a positive point of proof for man's sensitivity to the other species that we are having this debate.