Gender discrimination?

by teejay 38 Replies latest jw experiences

  • think41self
    think41self

    Teejay, take your herbal stress pills and a deep breath.

    Ok, one point at a time. (without addressing whether there's a difference in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabian policy).

    So your point is that if the military policy is to conform to native customs...then if the men wear native dress, the women should too. She is in the military, she agrees to abide by the rules. I agree with that, however I do not think it is that simple.

    If the American men wear native dress, are they not viewed with respect by the natives? I would answer YES...perhaps it could be argued that they would be viewed with MORE respect than if they wore their American clothes.

    Now if the American woman wears native dress, can it be said that SHE is viewed with respect by the natives? HARDLY! As a matter of fact, she is viewed with contempt. So I'm afraid that it is a gender issue Teejay, but it's not her fault that women are viewed that way by those native men. And I can't blame her for not wanting to be subjugated to that.

    think41self

    If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself!

  • waiting
    waiting

    I saw this woman, the highest ranking woman pilot in the usa - Lt. Colonel. interviewed on tv. I thought her points were good.

    1. She is the highest ranking woman officer pilot - and I do earnestly believe it would be harder for a woman to achieve what she's accomplished by her works.

    To don a garb which is viewed as an outward sign of a woman's natural inferiority to a man would be discrimination - she was forced to show that she was in agreement. No way around it, you wear it - you're giving the impression to all - your own countrymen and the native men and women - that you agree with their treatment of women and you.

    2. That "shawl" to us is nothing more than a piece of cloth. But it's like the term "The Truth." It's implications are fraught with power.....or lack thereof. I believe a native woman caught without having it on properly can receive physical punishment for her breaking the law. That "shawl" has real power.

    3. I was under the impression that all military women, upon leaving base, must wear the abayas - and they're not tradional western shawls. They are total female body cloaking. Quite a difference.

    4. The abayas is a piece of clothing which, indeed, is of religious consequence - in some ways similar to a jw's nametag - but having to be worn anytime we're in public. Would any of us wear one willingly - for years, particularily if it covered our whole body - like one of those old placards they used to wear? Advertise. Advertise. Advertise.

    Perhaps a better similarity would be the Jewish armband that, by law, had to be worn by every Jew in Germany during WWII. Would a Jewish American soldier wear it to keep PR relations quiet - particularily if they were Jewish - or had Jewish family members who had been killed? It is an outward sign of their perceived inferiority. Now, they may have worn it as a sign of superiority/rebellion when fighting......but that's different than trying to keep peace with the German military.

    Outward religious identification. I doubt if there would be many of us who would wear it - and we just might sue if someone made us - just because we were jews. And most particularily if our black/white military people weren't forced to wear the jewish armband.

    4. To take away a woman's right to drive - which is a form of freedom in, at least, the western society - and by law insist that she sit in the back seat - is discrimination.

    Do that to ALL military personnel - and at least it wouldn't be discrimination.

    5. This woman joined the military and proved herself equal - she should be treated as an equal.

    waiting

  • teenyuck
    teenyuck

    waiting, you stated all my thoughts.

    Wearing this "shawl" is against her beliefs. All military females in SA must wear it off base. They also cannot drive, as no Saudi woman can; they must sit in the back seat.

    She is a fighter pilot! She commands men. Wearing the traditional dress of Saudi women could interfere with her duties.

    As Donald Rumsfield mentioned on TV this Sunday, the US military is in Saudi at the request of Saudi government. We are there because we are protecting our interests in oil, as JT said. Mr. Rumsfield also stated that they can "uninvite" us anytime. However, they need us to protect them.

    I, for one, will never be visiting SA. Sally is now stateside, last I heard.

  • myMichelle
    myMichelle

    Hi,

    My husband was stationed in Saudi back in late 1992. While he was there, military personnel wore their BDUs, camaflauge, while on and off base. Apparently that has changed in the last 9 years.

    The regular Saudi police force carry automatic weapons, and at that time, and presumably still, the Saudis have a whole separate police force to watch over the Saudi women, punishing infractions in dress or behavior. These men walk around with switches in hand and use the switch on women who fell out of compliance with the Saudi law. It is my understanding that it was/is against the law for a woman to ride in the front seat of a car, and, if I'm not mistaken, it is a crime punishable by death for a woman to drive a car.

    Saudi rules such as these lead to a bit of a problem, and a lot of negotiating, when US troops were invited into Saudi back in 1990. Incidents continued to arise two years later when my husband did his time there. One incident he shared with me is when a female SP(MP) was riding in the front seat of a military vehicle. She had rolled the sleeves of her BDUs up, as had her male counterparts, and had her elbow resting on the window opening. Driving through town, one of the Saudi "woman police" saw a woman breaking the law by showing her forearm and he hit her arm with a switch when the car stopped by him. Now this woman was part of the Air Force's Security in uniform, in a military vehicle and the Saudi police officer felt it was entirely within his jurisdiction to mete out punishment to her. She didn't take too kindly to that, and shared this opinion with the Saudi police officer in a way that transcended a language barrier.

    If the rules of dress have changed for military personnel in the last 9 years, and this story surely indicates that, then I think it is downright hazardous policy for our military women over in Saudi. Once she dons the robes, she is no longer identifiable as a US Military member and loses the relative security of that identity. She will be subject to the "women police", and no doubt some rather sticky diplomatic problems will arise if any of these woman have the same response the afore mentioned SP did.

    I didn't see the story, but based on this post, it sures sounds discriminatory to me, and more than that it sounds dangerous. Sounds like a military presence in Saudi should be re-evaluated, but as someone stated before, it's all about the oil.

    Michelle

  • Shimmer
    Shimmer

    I'm so angered by this story. Not only because it is happening, but because some of the people on this board think there is nothing wrong with it. By subjecting our female military personell to their barbaric views of women, in my opinion, is co-signing their bullshit!! By going along with making women second class citizens, our government is basically saying that it's "o.k." to treat women this way. AND IT IS NOT O.K.....EVER!!!!

    It may just be a "loose scarf" to some people, but to the person wearing it, it is much more. It is a constant reminder that you are not as good as men. Which is a total crock!

    Whew! I feel better after having that rant.

    Shimmer

    Maybe being oneself is alway an acquired taste.-----PATRICIA HAMPL

  • Ben There
    Ben There

    there is everything wrong with Saudi society....its dirty filled with disgustng men who treat women in the most disgusting manner. But get real that is how it is!!!!!!IT IS very wrong. The reality is we are not the world and to demand our JUST rights in a very unjust org (get the similarities to the BORG?) doesn't fly.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    I was just thinking while reading this that some of the terrorists on that plane were Saudi nationals? We are there on a 'friendly visit'...members of their nation killed a whole lot of our people, we are a police force in their country.

    Dear Saudi's....you are going to let us land in your country and go look for Summa Ben Landin or we will bomb your ass. And don't be tellin' US how to DRESS....

    The alternative is to tell the women military that they can either not serve in Saudi Arabia or else if they wnat to serve they have to wear the dress

    truly I tell you, I am all for separation of church and state....

    In 1975 a crack team of publishers was sentenced to death by a judicial commiteee. They promptly escaped from the cult and now live life on the run. If you have a problem ... and if you can find them ... maybe you can contact the A--postate Team"

  • teejay
    teejay

    If McSally has a problem adhering to the laws and customs of the host country, regardless of her personal opinion and personal preference, she's in the wrong line of work and is disrespecting the uniform she's wearing. She needs to go home.

  • think41self
    think41self

    Gee Teejay,

    I expected a little more of a serious rebuttal from you.

    think41self

    If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself!

  • teejay
    teejay

    Think41,

    Actually, I was kinda hoping that someone would address the issues I'd brought up earlier... you know... what if it was a man with a complaint. Wonder why no one did?

    I liked what Michelle said, particularly the incident that involved the female MP. As she indicated, not abiding by the rules led to the enforcement of local law upon the servicewoman, despite all the extraneous indications that this female was NOT a local. The incident could have gotten blown way out of proportion, all because she didn't want to wear a scarf over her head.

    As I said above, McSally needs to go home. It's poorly thought-out policy to have females serving in in Saudi Arabia AT ALL.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit