by teejay 38 Replies latest jw experiences
These men walk around with switches in hand and use the switch on women who fell out of compliance with the Saudi law.
Oh God, I hope Think41self doesn't see this! 24/7 spanking by order of the state. *freepeace*--> where ya goin' babe? *Think*--> Mecca(Nirvanah!)
Sorry Teejay, I really thought I had addressed the issues you brought up. My response was about what if it were a man asked to wear the native garb. Oh well, guess we're not on the same track.
Sixofnine Too late, I saw it! Freepeace is running for his life...and I am right behind him!
think41self
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself!
There is currently a British national on death row in the United States. He committed a act regarded as a crime in US territory, and will be punished according to US laws. This is right and proper.
The bottom line: when you enter foreign territory, you become subject to local law and local punishments for infringements of those laws.
Whether you agree with the laws or not, whether you feel the laws treat people inconsistently or discriminatorily or not, is irrelevant. If you don't like the laws don't go to the foreign country. If a job will require you to go a country whose laws and culture you dislike, don't take that job. End of story.
Expatbrit
Now if the American woman wears native dress, can it be said that SHE is viewed with respect by the natives? HARDLY! As a matter of fact, she is viewed with contempt. So I'm afraid that it is a gender issue Teejay, but it's not her fault that women are viewed that way by those native men. And I can't blame her for not wanting to be subjugated to that.
Sorry, Think41. I missed this.
You seem to be making the (wrong) assumption that women in Saudi Arabia aren't respected. Women there are probably given more respect than women here.
Do you think that women, because they wear the abaya, are viewed with contempt? Is that what you see as the reason for the garment? Do you think the garment is the cause of male contempt?
Requiring servicewomen to comply with local custom is not gender based. Period. Men comply, women (should) comply. I can't see why you can't see that.
btw, yesterday I asked: "What, of genuine consequence, would change by her wearing the abaya?"
No one, including you, answered it.
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The bottom line: when you enter foreign territory, you become subject to local law and local punishments for infringements of those laws.
Thanks, Expat!
It's a mystery to me why the highest ranking woman officer pilot couldn't figure that out, but apparently...
The bottom line: when you enter foreign territory, you become subject to local law and local punishments for infringements of those laws.
Whether you agree with the laws or not, whether you feel the laws treat people inconsistently or discriminatorily or not, is irrelevant. If you don't like the laws don't go to the foreign country. If a job will require you to go a country whose laws and culture you dislike, don't take that job. End of story.
This is a good point.
I'd add further that the military has to operate under even stricter guidelines. Remember, the military is not in the business of right vs wrong. They kill people for a living, remember? If the US wants a military presence in Saudi Arabia, and the Saudis say 'sure, but do this, this, and this while you're here', the US military has to do it. Regardless if it is perceived as right or wrong to US civilians.
A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
--George Santayana
I'd add further that if the requirements for staying become more and more excessive, there will obviously be a point where we have to leave.
Where that line is....dunno....I don't think we've crossed the 'gone too far' line yet, though.
Remember when replying, this IS NOT A CIVILIAN we are talking about. SHE IS IN THE MILITARY. They *have to* operate under a different set of guiding principles.
A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
--George Santayana
Lunchbreak again, now I have time to answer this...
btw, yesterday I asked: "What, of genuine consequence, would change by her wearing the abaya?"I thought I had a genuine consequence when I stated:No one, including you, answered it.
If the rules of dress have changed for military personnel in the last 9 years, and this story surely indicates that, then I think it is downright hazardous policy for our military women stationed in Saudi. Once she dons the robes, she is no longer identifiable as a US Military member and loses the relative security of that identity. She will be subject to the "women police", and no doubt some rather sticky diplomatic problems will arise if any of these woman have the same response the afore mentioned SP did.The US Military had negotiated with the Saudi government to permit its female personnel to ride in the front seats of vehicles or even drive as long as they had all of their hair tucked up under caps (to make the fact that they were female less apparent), and this they were wearing military uniforms and driving/ riding in military cars. Given this, during the 3 months my husband was stationed there, there were 2 incidents where the "women police" thought they could ignore this and mete out punishment to female military members in uniform in US military vehicles.
Two different dress codes for military members based on gender is discriminatory. Like I said in my first post, all military members wore their uniforms when leaving the base on and off duty, seems to me that's how the policy should have stayed.
And I can't resist a comment on this:
You seem to be making the (wrong) assumption that women in Saudi Arabia aren't respected. Women there are probably given more respect than women here.If this is your opinion, okey-dokey, but reading experiences such as those found in the book Behind the Veil have lead me to believe otherwise. Women in Saudi are considered property, how does one respect property?
Well, lunchtime is over now, I have to be going.
Michelle
As a foreign woman whose country is now host to American servicemen--I have to agree with teejay and Expatbrit.
When you set foot in a foreign country--you should leave and forget your American ways, customs, beliefs and traditions. You cannot compare your country to your host country. You cannot tell us what's wrong with our government because you are just a guest. Try telling the host of the party things that you don't like about his party and lets see him throw you out.
So McSally's lawsuit is actually her show of arrogance and indifference to her host country. What she should have done is spare the American people this embarrasment and should have begged off from this assignment. Or she could have just stayed inside the barracks and serve this brand of arrogance to her peers. Give me a freakin' break.
And to say that women is not respected in that country because she has to wear the shawl is a crock full of dung. C'mon, that is their traditional garb--their symbol of respectability and modesty.
Don't tell us how to dress and how to act. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
teejay, expat, et al -
According to the NPR report I heard, this is not a requirement of the Saudi government, but a regulation imposed by the local commander. Lt. Col. McSally cannot make the U.S. government change Saudi law, nor is she trying to do so. She is challenging an order that she feels is out of line, yet apparently complying with that order while the challenge makes it way through the system. She is doing nothing out of line in my opinion. She is doing her duty, and if the situation were Blacks and Whites rather than women and men, no one here would think otherwise.
