Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong?

by cantleave 834 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    If the Catholic church in an African country is one of the few choices for education, and in these schools they teach that birth control is evil and that condems are evil even for prevention of disease, should they get credit for feeding and educating the children born for lack of planning (whose parents can't feed them) and taking care of AIDS victims?

    If an evangelical church offers 'reparative' therapy, where they try to change homosexuals into heterosexuals, should they get credit for offering counseling?

    If a religious organization runs a summer camp where they teach children to be ashamed of themselves and how to be 'soldiers' for Christ, does this fall under tax exempt charity work?

    There is a very large homeless shelter here run by a religious organization. I know someone that ended up there for while, and he told me that before they were allowed to eat, they had to sit through a sermon. Is this REALLY helping people of all faiths, when their own faith was disregarded and they were forced to be prosylitized to? What is the motivation? Charity?

    When I was a JW, I met a woman who was really proud of the work she did at a hunger center. The part that made her proud was that all the hungry were first 'fed' the word of the Lord, and then they got real food. Same questions as above.

    My aunt's husband wanted to send their daughters to attend a Catholic school. BUT FIRST, my aunt had to become Catholic (trust me, this was in name only, nothing in her life changed including her beliefs---that was enough for THEM). Then their finances were investigated, and the church determined how much they had to donate each week. My aunt would show up for mass, make her donation, and leave. When they needed help with tuition, they charitably allowed her to work once a week in the Bingo hall. Is this charitable? Is this motivated by wanting to do good for all, regardless of religion and economics?

    When a religious school accepts government vouchers (paid by tax dollars) as tuition to educate children, thereby draining the public school system of much needed money, is this really good for all, or only for their own?

    The way I see it, religion causes and complicates so many problems, and then gets credit for cleaning up some of their own messes, OR get credit for charity when they really are looking for members (get them when they are down and weak, that'll bring 'em in), or the majority suffers because they are syphoning off government funds.

    Church charity is a murkey cesspool when motives and practices are pulled into the light. Yes, very good people donate time and energy to these causes. Maybe they have completely different motives than the organization, but that doesn't change the system they work in.

    I hope secular organizations continue to flourish, but secularists are in the minority and therefore don't get the same support. Churches suck up the manpower. But my wish is that more secular charities pop up with crisper agendas---to give charity---without pushing agendas, either for or against belief in any ideology. Neutral. TRULY helping people without trying to ensnare them into any money making religion.

    I think Bill Maher made a fantastic point when they were discussing Romney's 'charitible' donations to the mormon church. He put a pic of the mormon temple next to a pic of a free clinic that focused on children. A palace compared to a crumbling shack. How many children could be treated with the money that goes into these buildings?

    And I know that there are other buildings we can look at and say "how many children could have been fed?" but these buildings are not supported by charity, or with money syphoned from the government, and they don't get treated like they have some altruistic motive for building their buildings. There will always be extravagence, and that's fine, it is just irritating when they hide it behind a story of "oh, we care sooooo much, and just want to help" bullshit.

    NC

  • tec
    tec

    If people are corrupting their 'giving', then by all means, put that into the light. But don't brush the good that is being done with the same tar.

    The Mustard Seed (started out in the basement of a church and is now an alberta-wide homeless/poverty organization) and the Hope Mission don't force their faith upon people (here in edmonton); and they help to address the root problems of poverty, endeavering to help people get on their feet and support themselves as well. You also don't even have to be catholic here to go to a catholic school. You certainly don't have to donate anything.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    On the Catholic and charitible donations:

    My friend's sister was going through a divorce. She attended mass every week, and really relied on the church for support. She got quite poor---as that is what divorce does sometimes---and she was devastated much of the time. Thank 'god' she had the church to rely on!

    At the end of the year, the church posted everyone's name on the bulletin board. They listed them in the order of the amount donated to the church. The highest giver was at the top of the list---my friend was the very bottom of the list.

    All the support she thought she had from this church was undone at that moment. NOW, not only did she need to nurse the wounds of her divorce, adjust to her new economic status, deal with being a single parent--no that was not enough, because suffering leads one to christ you know--now she ALSO had to deal with the betrayal of the very loving organization she turned to for help. She had to suffer the sting of public humiliation. The little she had to give, she gave, and she got publically mocked for it.

    She would have been so much better off if she had just hung out at the library or the park. Or maybe a science center! At least then she would not have had her woes tripled.

    NC

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    There is a very large homeless shelter here run by a religious organization. I know someone that ended up there for while, and he told me that before they were allowed to eat, they had to sit through a sermon. Is this REALLY helping people of all faiths, when their own faith was disregarded and they were forced to be prosylitized to? What is the motivation? Charity?

    "Life's water free." That church is saying that you only get life's water if you listen to a sermon. That's anti-christianity!

    -Sab

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    They have an awful lot of respect in the area. The person I knew that had to stay there would laugh and say half the guys would fall asleep for the sermon---mouths open, soft snores, flies landing. LOL But they had a mission. The person I know would actually skip the meals they offered and go get food in some other way, because he just couldn't stand it. This was a place that helped the men get jobs and save money so that when they left, they would be able to stay gone---so most of them have jobs and such, so they had other options for food---at least eventually.

    NC

  • tec
    tec

    That's pretty bad... a list of people who gave, from top $ amount to bottom? That's more like receiving your praise from men, so none need be forthcoming from God or his Son. Was that a common practice, or brand new that year?

    In any case, I know that I am being pretty strong in my opinions on this. But for a tangible thing, the mustard seed organization receives its donations from churches, individuals and grants for the homeless. Here in Edmonton, it doesn't take too long for someone to freeze to death if they don't have shelter in the winter. We only had one week of severe cold this winter, thankfully, but during that week, not a single man or woman was turned away from shelters that these people run. And when I went downtown, every homeless person I saw on the streets had a new warm winter parka, hat, gloves and boots. That is a result of the work this organization does. As well, another organization, the Hope Mission has a Hope Van that drives around to the homeless who don't or won't come to the shelter, bringing warm drinks and soups, blankets and such to them, and also inviting them to come inside and warm up for a bit.

    All of this is more than what I do. What a hypocrite I would be to knock them for it, thinking that the time that they also spend ministering to people who want to be ministered to, could be better spent elsewhere. Or that some money that must go into the maintenance of the churches supporting them would be better spent on other things.

    Some churches are more like big businesses. So call them out as you would any other big business if you like.

    But places such as the ones I listed above are not-for-profit, their buildings are located in the heart of downtown, where they can serve best and meet the needs of the people they try to help... all based on their faith in and teachings of Christ. They are not in a 'big business' category.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I'm not knocking them for anything they do, but pointing out that there is another side to all this Christian giving. Since one of the first things people do to defend some of the horrors that some religious have brought onto the world is to point out their charity, it is fair to investigate that charity and analyze it. Since these organizations are made up of people, it's only natural that some would be better than others and motivated differently. But that is a testament to the people. But we don't need to assume that all are motivated in such ways when we have so much evidence to the contrary. And as I've said a couple of times, I don't consider it charitable to clean up your own mess, so much of what the Catholic church does they brought on themselves.

    For those that are doing it right, it is a testament to THEM, not their religion and not Christ. Plenty of people that claim some relationship with Christ don't do these things---so it is individuals. And honestly, they are most effective when their charity is not an attempt to pull people into a church, but truly is an attempt to help the suffering--no strings. It's actually only when they mix religion in with their efforts that it gets wonky.

    So, I have a strong opinion too. When people who are religious, act in a way that can also be acted on by those that don't believe in god, they do a great deal of good. Feeding the poor and housing the homeless are not only the domain of the religious. BUT when they act in a way that only believers can act (mixing preaching, judgment and toxic teachings with their charity) it's not so good.

    NC

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Are you sure your spirituality has anything to do with Jesus/Christ?

    Check out these quotes of Buddha and Christ side by side:

    JESUS: "A foolish man, which built his house on sand."

    BUDDHA: "Perishable is a city built on sand."

    JESUS: "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed."

    BUDDHA: "Confess before the world the sins you have committed."

    JESUS: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the foregiveness of sins."

    BUDDHA: "Let all sins that were committed in this world fall on me, that the world may be delivered."

    JESUS: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."

    BUDDHA: "Consider others as yourself."

    JESUS: "If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also."

    BUDDHA: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon all desires and utter no evil words."
    JESUS: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you."

    BUDDHA: "Hatreds do not cease in this world by hating, but by love: this is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good."

    JESUS: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

    BUDDHA: "Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world."
    JESUS: "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone at her."
    BUDDHA: "Do not look at the faults of others or what others have done or not done; observe what you yourself have done and have not done."

    JESUS: "You father in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."

    BUDDHA: "The light of the sun and the moon illuminates the whole world, both him who does well and him who does ill, both him who stands high and him who stands low."
    JESUS: "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."

    BUDDHA: "The avaricious do not go to heaven, the foolish do not extol charity. The wise one, however, rejoicing in charity, becomes thereby happy in the beyond."

    There is compelling evidence that Jesus was at least studied up on much more than just Judaism . This is because Christ was a universalist, not a Christian or Jew. What he set up was to break the world and usher in a new line of thinking for mankind. To follow Christ is to follow his lead as a universalist. There cannot be more than one truth, only different flavors of the same truth. Something is either true or it's not. Someone is either "in Christ" or not. The definition of "in Christ" is synonymous with "in Truth" or "for Life."

    The simple fact is there are many different interpretations out there today, that no one can authoritatively say for sure who is interpreting things to extreme or too lax. To me it's a big problem when you get these power brokers who have this idea that the U.S. needs to be more theocratic to have gods blessing on the country, because they interpreted the texts in a more extreme way. That to me is scary talk, and is seed of doing some bad in the name of god, just like the crusades. I think it would be refreshing for Christians to own up to the fact that the God of the bible really doesn't take sides with one country post Jesus, and keep these religious ideas out of the secular, political, public educational affairs, and confined to centers of worship and living rooms.

    Jesus said that people would perform powerful works in his name that he didn't advocate. He fortold the power brokers even before he died. That's why he laid down the foundation for a philosophy rather than a creed. If he wanted a creed he would have just sided with one of the creeds of the day and furthered his message through them. When he mentioned scripture he didn't even use the term Torah, he just said "what is written" which simply means what has been agreed upon and made official. He knew that love had to permeate the entire world before his kingdom would be ready.

    My overall point is this, we really don't need to have a country that is blessed by god, and run by the rules of Jesus that someone thinks they understand, we'll do just fine with freedom, and freedom will afford anyone to continue to practice their faith however they choose to; or not. I think that is a pretty good deal for everyone. How about you?

    Being blessed by God brings good fotune, you don't want your country blessed by God? Do you not think good luck is required to win in life? I know I have had some good luck that has helped me through times whereas if it hadn't come I would have been SOL. Good fortune is very important in the scheme of things and is not arbitrary and should be sought after. The fact is that America is blessed by God as a free nation. So much spiritual progress has come from the freedom the Quakers set up in 1776 and there is no way it doesn't account for something special in the eyes of God. America is a "choice cut" as far as countries of the world go.

    -Sab

  • tootired2care
    tootired2care
    Being blessed by God brings good fotune, you don't want your country blessed by God? Do you not think good luck is required to win in life? I know I have had some good luck that has helped me through times whereas if it hadn't come I would have been SOL. Good fortune is very important in the scheme of things and is not arbitrary and should be sought after. The fact is that America is blessed by God as a free nation. So much spiritual progress has come from the freedom the Quakers set up in 1776 and there is no way it doesn't account for something in the eyes of God. America is a "choice cut" as far as countries of the world go.

    No I don't, it's pointless. As Han Solo in Star Wars so aptly put it: "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side. I've been from one end of this galaxy to another and I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controling my destiny."

    We are well past the age of believing in luck and superstition, and it doesn't do anyone any good to worry about something as useless and silly as a blessing. As I stated before, separation of church and state is what permitted freedom to flourish and this country to become great. Freedom to innovate and practice science. If it were up to god and religion, America would wait for god to fight their battles for them, as the ancients did, or not take up the sword in defense as Jesus commanded. No, religion is not due the credit of this nations ideals of freedom, military might, and technological prowess, you can thank freedom and science for those.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    No I don't, it's pointless. As Han Solo in Star Wars so aptly put it: "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side. I've been from one end of this galaxy to another and I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controling my destiny."

    But Han Solo knew that the force could be controlled, he'd seen it himself. He was was simply saying that Jedi's couldn't dodge his blasters shots. What was his explanation of the force that he saw? He didn't have one one.

    -Sab

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