If you don't know what's wrong it can't be fixed

by N.drew 220 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  SweetBabyCheezits

  Sab: The Phoenix Lights are supernatural because we have VIDEO of it and can test it (unlike the fairy story) and still cannot find a suitable explanation.

  How can you test it via video?

  This is an important fact: given all of the science of today we STILL cannot even begin to explain all the factors of the ship above Phoenix.

  We have aircraft, manned and unmanned, government and private, those that can levitate and those that cannot. That should be a starting point for inquisition.

  It's not a stetch to call it supernatural.

  It absolutely is a stretch. The link I posted to an old thread was an example of how easily our perceptions are tricked. Unexplained isn't supernatural.

  There is nothing in the known world that can be the size of a football field, fly above Phoenix effortlessly and make absolutely no sound in the process.

  Can you eliminate all other possible aircraft in the world for which the general public has no knowledge? How exactly was it determined to be the size of a football field?

  Can you give me some explanations? Or are you going to continue to poo poo it?

  I'm not saying people saw something they couldn't explain. But neither would I call it supernatural. Did you watch the video at the thread link I posted?
• 

  sabastious

  How can you test it via video?

  You tell me you're the scientist. A video is data and any data can be tested. No you can't reach inside YouTube, SBC, that's not what I meant.

  We have aircraft, manned and unmanned, government and private, those that can levitate and those that cannot. That should be a starting point for inquisition.

  If humans had such technology we'd be using it to end wars or start new ones.

  It absolutely is a stretch. The link I posted to an old thread was an example of how easily our perceptions are tricked. Unexplained isn't supernatural.

  Humans have a natural will to explain what they have already experienced which lacks explanation. Our brains work by association so when something unexplained crops up we naturally connect it with other unexplained events. This is not bad, it's human nature. "Tricked" is a loaded word.

  Can you eliminate all other possible aircraft in the world for which the general public has no knowledge? How exactly was it determined to be the size of a football field?

  Yes, with logic. There is no way that kind of technolgy is just sitting in a government warehouse. Also it doesn't make any sense to fly it over a huge city. I am aware that there is technolgy that I am not aware of, but the gap is not that large. That assertion can be questioned, of course, it's not absolute. But to say "the government hides technolgy" is just a copout skeptical argument.

  I'm not saying people saw something they couldn't explain. But neither would I call it supernatural.

  I would call it supernatural. Can you give me an example of a historical supernatural event that meets NC's criteria?

  -Sab
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  tootired2care

  We know know enough to know (because of science and not religion) that there is a logical explanation to everything. We may not fully understand it but we can be absolutely sure that their is a logical explanation at this point in time. That is a huge leap forward in man's thinking and God and religion will never be credited with that.

  Now because science has freed us in this wonderful way the world should never cower to religious superstition ever again, and charge full steam ahead with science and technology and spaceships into the stars.

  Maybe then we could find this God if he exists and tell him what an aweful communicator he is.

  It seems quite obvious to me what is wrong and it's sure not the unbelievers. I'm not sure that it can be fixed though.
• 

  tootired2care

  Matthew 7:22

  Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

  The great thing about the bible is that you can apply scriptures to yourself as well.
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  sabastious

  Had they all sat around saying what a mystery, it must be supernatural, then answers would not have been found.

  It's supernatural until proven natural, this is not a default position and in fact it challenges the position holder and the scientific community to explain it. Until then it's God or aliens. Intellectual honesty doesn't do a hill of beans to a person when faced with metaphysical struggles, such as facing one's own mortality. I for one am encouraged that scientists cannot find explanations for many events in our world past and present. This means that just maybe we aren't purposeless forms that sprung up for no reason other than we did. It's comforting to retain hope and faith in that just as it was for those people sitting around all those years ago "defaulting to the supernatural." No one wants to be intellectually dishonest, however no one likes a bubble burster either.

  The OP's title puts it well, "if you don't know what's wrong it can't be fixed." Humans have a will to feel comfort in their place in the universe and if a God theory provides that comfort, and nothing else, it could still be well worth the effort. Pontius Pilate put it nicely, "What is truth?" It's the hardest question known to science, imo.

  -Sab
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  tootired2care

  It's supernatural until proven natural, this is not a default position and in fact it challenges the position holder and the scientific community to explain it.

  Wrong. It is religions believers that are the ones making the extraordinary claims the burden of proof rests squarly on them. But it's impossible to prove feelings and personal revelations that go beyond the things written, so it's perplexing why they keep arguing these points in this scientific age where facts are what matters.
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  sabastious

  Wrong. It is religions believers that are the ones making the extraordinary claims the burden of proof rests squarly on them. But it's impossible to prove feelings and personal revelations that go beyond the things written, so it's perplexing why they keep arguing these points in this scientific age where facts are what matters.

  Humans as the design of God did not become an extraordinary claim until the advent of the scientific method. God is older than science, so the burden of proof actually falls on the accuser not the accused.

  "God exists" doesn't require explanation.

  "God doesn't exist" does.

  -Sab
• 

  NewChapter

  It's supernatural until proven natural, this is not a default position

  It most certainly IS a default position. Logical people would say it is natural until proven supernatural since everything that has ever been proven has been natural. Illogical people will dismiss this and say; 'well maybe THIS TIME it's supernatural, and it will remain so until proven otherwise." That is completely irrational. And it is default.

  I was driving down a dark road one night and the little girl in the back seat started squealing that she had seen an angel. The road was empty so I backed the car up to investigate her angel. It was a pond with a white statue of Mary lit up. Not an angel. Completely natural plaster of paris. Little girls jump to the supernatural when they don't understand. I wanted her to take a second look, so that as she grew up, she would learn to be skeptical and look for the natural first. I think it was a powerful lesson. I don't know her anymore, but I hope she grew up to be a powerful scientist! Cuz I'll tell ya one thing, jumping to the supernatural as the default conclusion sure as hell ain't breeding no scientists.

  NC
• 

  Terry

  We advocate FOR or AGAINST a deeply held belief on the assumption our advocacy has power.

  But if our advocacy itself makes an issue of advocacy itself rather than the deeply held belief....what then?

  On this Discussion Group we often end up discussion the person rather than the idea.

  Is it because people are easier to deal with than ideas? I don't know and can't say for sure.

  But, the medium is not the message. Or---is it?

  "The medium is the message" is a phrase coined by Marshall McLuhan meaning that the form of a medium embeds itself in the message, creating a symbiotic relationship by which the medium influences how the message is perceived.
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  tootired2care

  jumping to the supernatural as the default conclusion sure as hell ain't breeding no scientists

  The amount of stiffled progress, religion and God have caused mankind is incalculable, and there really isn't hardly much excuse for it in this day and age. I actually respect JW's more than those who try to argue God on this forum. At least the JW's try to stick to the facts relative to what is written, even though they have many failures on that front. I cannot accept this or that is so because God spoke to me.