The Great Debate: "Has Science Refuted Religion?

by dark angle 239 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  botchtowersociety

  And we'll probably never have a good answer to any of it. It's incredibly problematic to try and unravel symbolism, and any guess is only a guess.

  Fascinating stuff.

  Indeed. There are very few data points, since finds are scarce. I can imagine a scenario from a million years from now when our descendants return from space to an Earth that has finally lost enough radioactivity (from the nuclear wars of the late 21st C) to be explored. They might dig up an ancient Catholic shrine that avoided complete annihilation with the inscription "Mary, Queen of the Universe" still readable, and, excavating therein, find a statue of Mary along with paintings of her preserved under a dense layer of dust. One wonders what hypotheses that single data point might generate.
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  NewChapter

  And rodeo clowns. Don't forget they will find rodeo clowns, and may conclude that they hunted with thrusting spears!
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  botchtowersociety

  And rodeo clowns. Don't forget they will find rodeo clowns, and may conclude that they hunted with thrusting spears!

  That must be why they didn't survive.
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  NewChapter

  LOL---Indeed.
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  ziddina

  "What we haven't established, however, is what they were used for, or what they symbolized. ..." Burns, page #7, post #5531

  Well, we can analyze it logically.

  They put effort into producing something that had no practical value, unlike those tools I mentioned earlier.

  They kept these objects close. These objects were apparently at least as important to them as their weapons and tools.

  These objects clearly symbolized the female form - an adult female form, while we're at it.

  These objects were obviously kept strictly for their SYMBOLIC value, not for any intrinsic value as a tool or weapon for survival.

  And as I already pointed out, the researcher whose comments and website I quoted earlier on page #7, referred to such female figures as:

  a female figure symbolizing a divine 'Giver of Life' ('Birthgiver' and perhaps also 'Death-Giver',

  So it's pretty obvious what their value was, to Homo erectus...
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  NewChapter

  So---possible goddess. But also---magic. Perhaps a charm for birthing women. (maternal and infant mortality must have been high). Seems that a lot of foraging bands go with magic rather than god/godesses. Birth was likely viewed as very powerful---and closely linked to death. I think the idea that a male gave life would not have been logical. In fact, I find the Genesis story to be an odd attempt---a male makes a male and then delivers a female from a male through a supernatural cesarean section.

  I took a course in goddesses (not in college) and it tracked artifacts. One really interesting thing was that as patriarchal societies grew, the goddess figures, which had grown large, were growing smaller and the gods which had been smaller grew larger until they were bigger.

  Matriarchal or patriarchal---I tend to think it was a bit more egalitarian. Of course that could mean lots of different things. An egalitarian society could still be male dominated---but the males are equal to each other and the females are equal to each other but subordinate to the men.

  NC
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  ziddina

  "So---possible goddess. But also---magic. Perhaps a charm for birthing women...." New Chapter, page 8

  ALL of the above.

  Deities and magic and charms have frequently gone together - every "miracle" is equivalent to some form of "magic" - though when it's generated by the culturally-approved "deity" - especially the more recent ones - it is spoken of as more "divine" than 'mere' magic...

  Such superstitions/forms of worship exist through the entire period of the bible - the "ark of the covenant", to name just one "charm", though it was one large "magical" object for the entire nation; and Islam probably has multiple "magical charms". The black rock at Mecca and it's supposed "magical" - er, "miraculous" - powers probably qualify as some sort of 'charm' - invoked by the act of kissing it or pointing one's finger at it...
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  NewChapter

  Sometimes---but even today, there are cultures that have magic without deities. Or they have deities, but magic is a separate issue---seen more as a kind of energy. Some have spirits, but not deities. For some it is dead ancestors. And from there, a great combination of it all. Sometimes they have witches, even though the witches don't know they have that power.

  There is one little group that believes that every single thing is the result of magic. There are absolutely no accidents, and every death is some bad magic---possibly brought on by a witch that may be unaware of their power. So when someone dies, any person within close proximity is suspect. gratefully, they don't burn witches. There are bands that will even attack each other if they think a death is due to some kind of magic. Gratefully, they have big men who will work diplomacy and push for peace. Sometimes a payment of pigs will settle the issue.

  It's crazy when you look into modern day bands and tribes. The variety is endless.
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  ziddina

  "Sometimes---but even today, there are cultures that have magic without deities...." New Chapter

  I need to look further into that statement.

  I've never run across a group or people or culture that had some sort of belief in "miracles" or "magic", that didn't have some form of "deity" also - whether the deity was in charge of the magic - well, that depended upon whether the various types of 'magic' were considered "good" or "bad"...
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  NewChapter

  I'll try to give you specifics---but I'll have to read a bit. I've still got some anthro books--but they break religion down into certain types. I'll find the definitions.