Evidence for God... (page 17)

NewChapter

I think it is telling that quite a few cultures used hallucinogenics to get in touch with the other side. Their hallucinations was evidence they had made it, which to me, is further support that such notions grew out of hallucinations, dreams, sleep paralysis etc. Trying to recreate.

InterestedOne

Me: I just gave an example of my own imagination of a super-spiritual realm beyond the spiritual. Although I have conceived of such a thing, the fact that I have conceived of it does not increase the likelihood of it actually existing.

tec: But you did not conceive of the spiritual. You conceived of the details within the spiritual, but you already knew of the spiritual to be able to build upon it, or add things to it, or manipulate it, etc.

True I did not conceive of the spiritual. Someone suggested the idea to me. I did not originate it. Nevertheless, I have just now originated the idea of a super-spiritual realm. Just as someone has suggested a spiritual realm beyond the physical, populated by spirit-beings. I am now suggesting a realm beyond the spiritual that is so mind-boggling and amazing that even the beings populating the spirit realm consider the super-spirit beings to be performing miracles within the spirit realm.

I ask again, why should the fact that a human can think of something, whether it be a spiritual realm that was suggested to me by someone else or whether it be my own idea of a super-spirit realm that I might suggest to others, be considered evidence that makes either of them likely to exist?

I also ask again, why do you think it is unlikely that people made up the idea of a spirit realm on their own? What are your criteria for favoring the unliklihood of it versus the likelihood of it? Of course we were not there to see what the first person was thinking/experiencing when the idea of a spiritual realm came into human thought, but why do you think it was more likely to be from an external source?

tec

No bigger than any statement you have made: That humans are incapable of creating a spiritual universe.

Unlikely to... and I will change that to totally possible if someone can conceive of something that is outside of our existence.

And this was just evidence toward my ponderings of deism, alone.

Since when have humans EVER setteled for that? Not when we have these fantastic brains that can either hypothesize, or simply make things up.

I just wondered at the certainty of your statement, that the supernatural was the ONLY explanation available to them.

I find it hard to accept that you HONESTLY don't believe humans were capable and even likely to create gods. And if you really believe that, then I definitely view your take very differently---

To create the spiritual... if no sense of the spiritual existed. Yes.

So what about children and their invisible friends? You have not addressed this. Children through the ages, all over the world, independent of each other, have created invisible friends with varying powers and appearances. This seems really unlikely, if I approach it with your viewpoint. So do you think there really are invisible friends which is why we see a common theme? Or does your reasoning only apply to gods?

Childhood phenomena? Children do set aside their imaginary friends while they are still children... are there studies that show every culture,civilization,etc has children with imaginary friends? Just curious if we can make a correlation like that? I think some might also know those imaginary friends are not real, but they are so open to more than just the testable 'reality' that they can throw themselves into their play.

I convinced myself to continue to believe in Santa, long after I knew my parents had made him up, just because I wanted the special magic surrounding Christmas. I even knew what I was doing as a kid, but set it aside so I could continue the game. So I know the difference.

Maybe children are even reacting to something, or a sense of something more.

(I never had one that I can recall, btw - imaginary friend - same as you; though I did always feel that God was with me)

Peace, tammy (whose quote box is not working)

Twitch

If you take the person out of the equation, does god still exist?

PS The thread is progressing nicely it seems. Still reading but thus was me first thought

tec

lol... there he is ;)

Peace,

tammy

NewChapter

I convinced myself to continue to believe in Santa, long after I knew my parents had made him up, just because I wanted the special magic surrounding Christmas.

I find this incredibly interesting. You wanted it to be true, and so you convinced yourself it was---all evidence to the contrary. It does not seem reasonable to me, and maybe this is where we differ. When I found out Santa was not real, I reveled in the information. I was in on the secret, and it was glorious. I couldn't wait for others to figure it out so they could celebrate it with me. I could have never made myself believe what was proven to me not to be true.

Needless to say, I was not one of those that was devastated to find out the truth.

NC

tec

That is interesting. In some ways we are similar. But in other ways, the way we think is very different. My sister did the same as me. Convinced herself to look the other way (from herself, lol) and continue to believe in Santa even when she no longer actually did. My son did the same for a while too.

My poor baby brother though... I think Santa might have been 'gospel' to him.

I ask again, why should the fact that a human can think of something, whether it be a spiritual realm that was suggested to me by someone else or whether it be my own idea of a super-spirit realm that I might suggest to others, be considered evidence that makes either of them likely to exist?

Because we have not thought of anything else in all our years of evolution and life. Physical and the spiritual... nothing else. We cannot even conceive of something else. Our sense of the spiritual and our idea of the spiritual has progressed, yes, to many different forms. But the sense was there from the beginning (as much as we know), alongside the physical (which we know IS real).

In any case, I am not sure I can explain my position on this particular matter any more fully than I have. I will if something else comes to me. This sensing of the spirit/ual, combined with the sense of the spirit that I feel within me even now (as well as our seeming inability to concieve of something completely new without blocks to build up to it)... leads me to think that acknowledgment of the spiritual was born from having the sense the spiritual right from the get-go, because it is a true part of us. Same as the physical.

And I do not have hallucinations, sleep paralysis, childhood imaginary friend, or any 'trips' from any drugs. Nor do I take anyone for their word on things. I have to see the truth of it, or experience it for myself, first. I am a pretty critical, doubtful person, despite what some of you might think, lol. I am becoming less so as I experience more that I previously never thought possible, but I still take everything from everyone with a grain of salt, considering their own limitations of communication.

Peace,

tammy

NewChapter

That is interesting. In some ways we are similar. But in other ways, the way we think is very different. My sister did the same as me. Convinced herself to look the other way (from herself, lol) and continue to believe in Santa even when she no longer actually did

Tec---I don't know if you understand how HUGE I consider such a statement. And you may not like this, but when I watch you working so hard to make everything to fit, the twists and turns, I'm always going to remember that you were able to believe in Santa, regardless of evidence. That you did so intentionally. This is something that NEVER occured to me. The more I think about it, the more profound it becomes.

NC

tec

If I thought I had something to hide by it, I would not have mentioned it. I mention it because I know the difference between pretending, and not pretending. I know myself well. I knew what i was doing then, and I am not doing that now. I think the same might occur with children and imaginary friends. Not having had one to draw a conclusion from, I can only speculate.

Peace,

tammy

still thinking

To create the spiritual... if no sense of the spiritual existed. Yes....tec

I actually wonder if you are reading what I am reading tec...

I think it is telling that quite a few cultures used hallucinogenics to get in touch with the other side. Their hallucinations was evidence they had made it, which to me, is further support that such notions grew out of hallucinations, dreams, sleep paralysis etc. Trying to recreate...new chapter

Exactly!....using hallucinogens recreate the spiritual experience...playing with the mind and our creative thoughts. How would they do that if our mind wasn't capable of having these thoughts?

You could try to argue that it is using these thoughts because of the spiritual realm...but that would be much more of a stretch to believe than our minds inventing these thoughts.

Also dismissing the point that children create imaginary friends....does not add strength to your argument. The point is they are capable. Without anyone telling them to do it.

Just as a side note...I never believed in Santa...I believed in God and Jesus....my god wass bigger than your god....LOL

Evidence for God...

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