Why I truly come in!

by justmom 160 Replies latest jw friends

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  NewChapter

  Sab,

  Think about this. I don't know if Jesus existed or not, I am undecided. However using your reasoning, you must consider all belief system. Ra, Ishtar, Whatever it is that Scientologists believe, Marduk, Dagon. Some gods were said to have walked the earth as humans. That's not unique to Christianity. And organizations built up over these beliefs. Wars were fought. Politics affected. But did these deities or people really exist?

  And even if they did exist, is their future portrayal accurate? Oftentimes, when a powerful teacher/leader with followers dies, they become more powerful in narratives after their deaths. More followers are picked up, not based on a man they knew, but based on the these new narratives. And sometimes the original did not exist at all, but the stories are tenacious and accepted.

  Just encouraging you to look at it from all angles. I have no opinion either way. He could have existed and touched many, which led to fantastical tales after his death. Or he may not have existed and is simply a personification of a belief system. Either way, the existence of these systems are not evidence.

  NC
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  tec

  Justmom, lovely post.

  NC, the answer to where else can you go to learn these answers is actually a 'who'... to Christ. He is the who we learned from as well. I will leave off though, since you have addressed your questions to Justmom.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Qcmbr

  LV - I think any group can have tremendous benefits to an individual depending on their need. I have no doubt that many people can be found in religions who have benefited from positive role models, new friends, structure and hope. I miss that myself. I like the approach of looking for positive results from empirical evidence but to show why this is a necessary outcome of Christ I think the test would need additional evidence ( for example what other things could be causing low repeat offences, did they get jobs, how does a similar set in a Muslim/ atheist/ buddhist country fare and so on.) Even then you still need to establish why a casual link between a real Christ and converted convicts must result in fewer offenses rather than a notional Christ and I have no idea how you could evidentially show that. There will always be a religious group that , for example , earns more / has fewer divorces/ takes less Prozac per member so it's very difficult to use this kind of statistical study.
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  NewChapter

  I would think that any strong support system could have a positive effect on an exinmate. Strong family. Strong social structure. Maybe a church. The thing is finding the structure. The problem is that many families are disfunctional--which led to the offense---and old associates are bad (sorry for JW sounding reference). But if you go to prison, and all of your friends do drugs, then they are the ones you come home to. Or the crazy family. Or the gang.

  Now how do you develop new associates and a support group in prison? You really can't unless they make the first move, and churches tend to do that looking for converts. So now they can come home to a built in structure that is separate from the one they left.

  I suppose that could work with any postitive support if they reached out to inmates. If I had a bird watching club, and promised acceptance and support, and activities to do when they came home, it could also have a positive effect. Instead of robbing a store with an old friend, perhaps they will be birdwatching with me, and then having dinner.

  There are so many variables--but I have a little experience here (never been to prison, but exhubby was). With a good support system, they are less likely to reoffend. I don't think it matters exactly what that support system is, as long as it helps them to act better.
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  LV101

  thank you for responding/appreciate and can't wait to take real time to read.

  Xchange ---- I've probably exhausted my post? Didn't mean to derail justMom's topic and apologize if that happened.
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  sabastious

  Think about this. I don't know if Jesus existed or not, I am undecided. However using your reasoning, you must consider all belief system. Ra, Ishtar, Whatever it is that Scientologists believe, Marduk, Dagon. Some gods were said to have walked the earth as humans. That's not unique to Christianity. And organizations built up over these beliefs. Wars were fought. Politics affected. But did these deities or people really exist?

  I disagree because those religions are all dead in comparison to their original glory. The reason for their downfall is because they were not tied to an event that was worth remembering into modern day. We can still learn so much from the story of Christ. Anytime anyone has any chance of uncovering real historically verifiable information about Jesus the world awaits in eager anticipation. I think you minimize the significance of the longevity of the ideas of this particular Jewish revolutionary. My point is that he was a real man that broke the world and we are still feeling the after effects. No other god has pervaded culture like Christ has. There are a lot of ideas out there and many of the good ones are inside the ideas of Christ somewhere. I believe very strongly that he was an educated person. There may have been some sort of secret education that was made available to him as the Son of God. The alleged ideas of Christ as told by the Gospels show someone of great intellect and understanding of the human condition.

  And even if they did exist, is their future portrayal accurate? Oftentimes, when a powerful teacher/leader with followers dies, they become more powerful in narratives after their deaths. More followers are picked up, not based on a man they knew, but based on the these new narratives. And sometimes the original did not exist at all, but the stories are tenacious and accepted.

  The thing about Christ is we have so much data on people who would die for their ideas about him. We can study opposing and congruent views about him across thousands of years and through many cultures. Surely we have enough data to develop a methodology that can get a best guess as to who he was. The most important conclusion about Christ is whether or not he actually claimed he was the Son of God. Where do we draw the line between reality and Roman corruption of the idea? That's where the methodology comes into place. But instead of spending time and resources to such ends most non believers turn to disprooving the idea that God exists. So then the question of whether he was the Son of God or not becomes moot. However if he did make such a claim the events that came afterward make sense. The Adversary works through the desires of the flesh therefore the decadent religions of the future are the opposition to the rule of Christ. This is why I am so interested in the Book of Revelation because it speaks of merchants crying over the fall of "the Great City of Babylon the Great." It shows this picture of a woman who has turned everyone mad and preys on the holy ones: the ones that don't want to be part of the Great City.

  Anyway, what I am getting at is that there is so much to work with when working with the idea of Christ. Maybe you are unconvinced, but that doesn't mean that other people should be too. No one has combed the desert completely. Also new technologies will arise that will allow us access to new information. If you give up now then when those times come you won't have the motivation to do the work to find out the truth. There is nothing wrong with a deconvert returning to the idea of God and Christ, but with a clean slate. That's what Christ did himself, but with the Jewish religion.

  -Sab
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  elderelite

  *EE bangs head on wall again and again*

  when am i going to learn.... When Thor tells me not to click on a thread, listen to Him!!!!!!

  But since im here.... Lv101, might i point out that muhamd has MORE followers than christ... Does that make him right?
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  mrsjones5

  Well you know, some folks just gotta have a clusterfuck. And if you think I'm not talking about you I probably am (Op excluded).
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  elderelite

  Whew, for a minute i thought were talking about me jonsey...
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  mrsjones5

  Well...

  *snicker*