Why I truly come in!

by justmom 160 Replies latest jw friends

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Hmm - I'm pretty sure you initially suggested that I'm serving 'the god of greed and power which is the Adversary of truth' which seems hard to square with 'I don't reject everything you say'. Personally I'm happy to be categorised as such but only because it doesn't carry much emotional weight. It just seems that this prejudice precludes really ever understanding anything because you would always seem to have to decide if I was simply telling half truths in order to deceive (the normal modus operandi of the christian devil?)

    I never suggested that you serve the god of greed and power, that judgement was reserved for the Watchtower. The fact that you would even consider that I meant you personally means you just don't have a good grasp on who I am or what I believe. Likely becuase you have been distracted by something internally while reading my words over the years. One of those distractions seems to be some sort of complex that you have about being called devilish. To me the devil is nothing more than the collective consciousness of evil. Jesus called Peter Satan if only for an instant. This is because Satan's home is the human ego. Every single human being is susceptible to the seduction of their own ego within a range. I believe when you assert that faith is mind rot that you are being egotistical. But not in the way that makes a man beat his wife, but a more subtle way that is completely transparent to you. The Adversary is "cunning" and therefore many times you are not aware of his presence within you. You are not aware of how he manifests in your life.

    There are two opposing forces at work in this world. That of good and that of evil. Good is concerned with the whole while evil is only concerned with the self. There is no other reason besides selfishness as to why someone would wage a war on faith in God itself. The war on the Bible is understandable, the war on God is not. Many who fight for the war on the Bible are of the forces of good, but there are a few who use the conflict to their own personal advantage.

    I do find that faith (simple definition - belief sans evidence) is a less effective route to knowledge and I wonder why I ever thought it was a virtue. I do find that faith to be a form of mind rot (i.e. reduces the ability to critically think) because it rejects a fundamental feature of sceptical enquiry (evidence.) Now if you'd like to redefine faith as the hope in something based upon evidence suggested elsewhere I could meet you on common ground (though I'd use the term inference instead) because it is such thinking that allows experiments to be conducted to find phenomenom that haven't been observed (like the Higgs Bosun.) I think religious faith however, isn't backed by an initial set of provable starting points but seems to infinitely regress to itself. Now faith may indeed sometimes get it right by coincidence or heuristic intuition (the Mormon avoidance of tobacco based upon a revelation and adhered to by faith has been found to be right by solid scientific evidence but faith also allowed mormons to be utterly socially racist) but that is correct outcomes from unsound starting points.

    You are opperating on the assumption that in order to have faith you require lack of evidence. This is not true and shows a stubborn lack of understanding of how faith works. Faith is inate for some people and you can call these people "chosen." Atheism is a letting go of the hand of God. All atheists have to justify why they let go and how they do this is by explaining that their faith was never there in the first place. They say that faith is actually the suspending of knowledge which it is actually the exact opposite. Faith is the agreement with God that instruction comes from Him. That poses the problem of how that instuction is imparted. That's where faith becomes deeply personal and why it's often misinterpreted as confirmation bias. God wants to be YOUR personal friend, but there is a process of which that comes to be. You have to answer the call and become "chosen." To say that faith is merely the abscence of evidence is an extremely bias and general thing to say and it flies in the face of all the personalized data that exists.

    People of faith have a hard time corroborating because it's such a personal experience. Take justmom for example. I can tell her faith is strong and that she wants to help others come to faith. That makes her your enemy because you seek to replace faith with reason. That's why I said EP's questions were a trap because I know his and yours motivations because I have read enough about you to make that assertion.

    every theist is atheistic to everyone else's god(s)

    This is completely wrong and is based upon your own sterotyping of theism. There are many theists out there that do not believe that their personalized God must be the only means of which God works through humanity. This is the cardinal sin of most organized religion. They don't teach deism along side theism, they just pigeon hole and develop a system of emotional control to abate dissent. You have a lot assumptions, Q, but you stubbornly hold onto them and use them as missiles where they should just be ideas that you are furthering.

    -Sab

  • jay88
    jay88

    You are clearly an eloquent person and your past godliness still manifests into your life of non belief.

    Typical,...

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    fair enough. I cannot go with you to the idea that a God was ever holding my hand and that I am letting go. I find that idea simply unsupported by anything other than your assertion which for me is not enough.

    Every believer argues for a store of knowledge which is bestowed upon them (they are chosen, a revelation is given, a voice is heard, a divine embrace is given etc.) This is the ego in action - information expressed and channelled through the I. Faith promotes an internal experience as evidence for a universal truth. This is exactly how the ego works, it promotes the personal experience as having universal meaning. I find the scientific method works the opposite way , it surprises the ego by explaining the phenomenon in an often counter intuitive way simply by experimentation and measurement and taking the I out of the picture.

    Faith said mankind was the final creation in the image of God.

    Science took mankind and said you are still changing and one ancestor was a worm.

    Faith said the earth was the centre of the universe and everything revolved around it.

    Science said that the earth orbits a singularly insignificant star on the tip of a common galaxy in a huge super cluster which isn't particularly significant.

    Faith said that you could sin.

    Science said that much of what we do is caused by genetic predispositions, fluctuating chemical situations, brain wiring , instinct and conditioning.

    Faith said you could live forever if you bow the knee and reject the apple.

    Science said you could live forever if they can fix our biological clock.

    Faith says that you must walk without 100% knowledge

    Science says you can walk any way you want but this is the physics that allows it.

    Faith said some people are special , some people are chosen, some people will get to Heaven.

    Science says everyone is special because you carry unique genetic material that took millions of years of recombination and mutation to make you.

    Faith says keep trying regardless of results.

    Science says you've got an incorrect hypothesis on your first failed experiment - go synthesise.

    Faith says you can heal people by prayer.

    Science says you can allow the body to heal by understanding pathogens, cells, drugs and medical procedure.

    Faith says the moon is a divine sign.

    Science says go and have a look.

    I don't like faith very much.

  • watersprout
    watersprout
    I am asking honest questions. If you do not like, well, so be it.

    You ask honest questions about faith?? Mwahahahahahahahahaha! Oh my goodness between you and Myelaine i'm entertained tonight!

    Sab is telling people I am just trying to tear down their faith,

    Ummm yeah I totally agree, theists really piss you off it's kinda obvious.

    Much like Sab, you resort immediately to name calling.

    Errr what name calling? I called you an athiest (which you are) and said that you resort to pigtail pulling. No names in there!

    Jesus would be ashamed of you.

    That's for Him to take up with me, not for you to decide what He thinks. Anyway you don't believe in Him so yet again talking out your BUM!

    Where is the Christian love,

    Yes of course, where is the Christian love! I'm such a bad Christian! Tut tut! I have plenty of love, just not for people who like asking questions only to then rip the posters belifs apart! Where's the love in that?

    the help for someone honeslty asking questions?

    Hahahahahahahaha! Hang on let me get my breath.... You, ask honest questions?? Ok then....... You do make me larf!

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Every believer argues for a store of knowledge which is bestowed upon them

    There is only one store of knowledge and there are many ways to tap into it. If everyone taps into the Source without direction from God they will degrade into chaos and non existence.

    John 6 - 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.

    Q, you have chosen the natural world and you will have to live with the consquences of that. You will die, as I will, but choosing to eat from the bread of heaven while we are alive will yield everlasting life. Eternity is worth it, but first the Adversary has to be thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur. Faith is not an act of ego, however the ego can feign faith because of the cunning of the Adversary. Faith is an act of loyalty to a power that is higher than one's self. Faith is frightening because our natural selves yearn for full understanding of our environment in order to feel safe. Living life to feel safe is an act of the ego and will lead into destruction. Living life for God and His purpose for you leads into eternity. This woman's video is a good explanation of "purpose."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Wi-EfkpjQ

    -Sab

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Step Last: when it all boils down to the essence, it amounts to "my imaginery friend is better than your imaginery friend."

    Preamble to step 1: take 10 years off from imaginery friends, then re-evaluate.

    It's just a suggestion. No one, and I mean NO one has all the right answers.

    Farkel

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    when it all boils down to the essence, it amounts to "my imaginery friend is better than your imaginery friend."

    I most certainly agree, but the human imagination to me is the conduit from God to man. I don't think God cares how he manifests in people's minds and lives, I think that's more connected to the person. On the other hand not all imagined gods are created equal. Therefore a methodology of determining which gods are "good" and which are "evil" is required. Corroboration of the faithful is data that is largely ignored by the scientific community. They don't see the cohesion, but I suspect eventually they will but by their own methods. Islam says that "God is in everything competent." I like the way they put it.

    -Sab

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    You ask honest questions about faith?

    Indeed. Your response to someone asking a question would make Jesus weep.

    Ummm yeah I totally agree, theists really piss you off it's kinda obvious.

    I see you are secure in your ignorance. You, like many others, judge me in ignorance. You make Jesus weep.

    Errr what name calling? I called you an athiest (which you are) and said that you resort to pigtail pulling. No names in there!

    Sorry, you directly alluded to not having outgrown pulling pigtails on the playground, basically calling me childish. You insult, then deny it. Jesus hates a liar.

    That's for Him to take up with me, not for you to decide what He thinks. Anyway you don't believe in Him so yet again talking out your BUM!

    I regularly talk to Jesus, he said he hates all of these things and if people do it in his name, it makes him sad.

    I'm such a bad Christian! Tut tut! I have plenty of love, just not for people who like asking questions only to then rip the posters belifs apart!

    Yes, you are. I am glad we agree. You didn't show any love. I was sincerely asking questions, you decided, before I did ANYTHING other than to ask a question, to attack and then lie. Jesus hates that.

    Well, you Christians have once again shown yourselves to be juding, even pre-judging, full of hate and ready to attack without any provocation. You do more to make Jesus sad than any poor sinner like I ever could.

    Good day to you.

  • Qcmbr
  • cofty
    cofty

    Preamble to step 1: take 10 years off from imaginery friends, then re-evaluate. - Farkel

    This is without doubt the finest piece of advice any of us can give to somebody who is wondering about "truth".

    Faith requires constant reinforcement.

    It is also why evangelising on a forum like this must always be challenged with evidence.

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