Anonymous Message to Watchtower

by jwleaks 343 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    jamnesmahon,

    You make some good points but your approach absolutely does not work yet:

    Find the evidence then give it to the police though. It seems that these people are acting as judge, jury and executioner and we have a legal system for that.

    These religions know how to hire detectives to frame judges, witnesses, destroy evidence, delay judgement, and do whatever it takes to retain their power. Even Amazon has refused to carry several books about Scientology for years (also all bookstores in Australia and many other places) out of fear of lawsuits and personal exposure.

    Sometimes underground is the only answer.

    If your 5 year old boy was being raped continually by an elder, would you wait on the authorities? I know of a case like this with a personal friend.

    peace,

    Randy

  • cedars
    cedars

    I understand your sentiments jamesmahon, and (believe it or not) I am slightly nervous about this too. However, in the greater scheme of things, I believe only good can come from this.

    Any "witch hunt" that ensues from Anonymous publishing the Watchtower's list is not their fault, but the fault of the Watch Tower Society for holding the list in the first place in flagrant disregard for the rule of law.

    Think of it another way... is it right that the Watch Tower Society should be allowed to "take the law into their own hands", but not Anonymous? You will probably say that "two wrongs don't make a right", but the Watch Tower organization is for secrecy, whereas Anonymous (in this case, at least) is for transparency. A "check and balance" if you will!!

    Cedars

  • cedars
    cedars

    A new video, with a stronger (and longer) message...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob7vynx8eVg

    Cedars

  • jamesmahon
    jamesmahon

    Hi Both

    I understand the logic behind what you are saying, I just think it is flawed.

    What is the benefit of doing this?

    As far as I can see, the perceived benefits are supposedly:

    • To shame the watchtower into changing its policy
    • It will sully the name of the watchtower in the minds of the public and possibly in its membership
    • To protect children
    • To gain justice for those that were abused

    If there others I have missed please let me know. I don't like to be in a minority believe it or not so happy to be convinced on this.

    Anyway. Turning to each of these:

    • Shaming the WTBTS into changing its policy

    If the WTBTS believes its policy is legal this will change nothing. If it is not legal then the change can only occur through legal means. This categorically will not make them change a legal or illegal policy. The fact the list exists is already in the pubic domain. Anonymous' action will not change anything about WTBTS policy save put pressure on them to be more secretive.

    • It will sully the name of the watchtower in the minds of the public and possibly in its membership

    Possibly. Think the membership will just see it as more persecution. Some will take notice I suppose. The public largely will go 'religion, protection of child molestors. Now there is a surprise.'

    • To protect children

    This is a biggy for me. The NSPCC and the Scottish Chlidren's Commissioner (who I did work with on the issue of anonymity of accused child molestors before conviction) do not think that community notification of convicted child molestors protects children and actually believe the evidence suggests it increases the risk. It drives perpetrators underground. See this report http://www.correctiveservices.qld.gov.au/About_Us/The_Department/Probation_and_Parole/Managing_sex_offenders_in_the_community/megans_law_review.pdf

    Child molestors who have not been convicted are clever at covering their tracks and changing their names so you can bet that many of the people on the list will still be abusing but under a different name. Others will simply move on and chnage their names. The Scottish children's commissioner in particular were very concerned that an atmosphere where men are named in the public by accusers before conviction was stopping men from volunteering to work with children. They were desperate to get more men to volunteer to run children's activities to provide positive role models for chlidren (boys in particular) and did a big piece of research to find out why men were not volunteering. The biggest reason by far was the fear they would get accused of molestation.

    • To gain justice for those that were abused

    Justice in what way? As said a lot of these men will have changed their names anyway. There will be no criminal conviction unless the victim is prepared to give evidence. So the best they can hope for is mob justice. But this inevitably means that some people who were innocent but accused will be subject to the same mob justice. This is not the way civilised society operates. As an aside I was abused as a child. Never went to the police. The thought of someone releasing the abusers name and then people linking it to me and it being all raked up again makes me feel sick. How dare we presume what is best for people who have been abused.

    So looking at the potential benefits, of which I can argue there is none, this has to be weighed against the potential harm to innocent people I discussed above (and as stated above the abused who may just want to move on). So sorry, there is no 'check and balance' in operation here. The argument this is providing justice when the legal system will always fail (just as it did with Conti? or the litigation against the catholic church which is a much, much bigger fish) holds no water I am afraid. Even if it did, the fact that the actions of anonymous are more likely (note the NSPCC report) to harm children rather than helping them should be sufficeint for this board to take a step back, forget out hatred of the WTBTS, think of the real implications and then wholeheartedly condemn what they are doing. Their heart may be in the right place (though I have my doubts) but their brains need to be also.

  • cedars
    cedars

    Hi jamesmahon - perhaps before I answer those new points of yours, you can answer mine? Namely...

    Any "witch hunt" that ensues from Anonymous publishing the Watchtower's list is not their fault, but the fault of the Watch Tower Society for holding the list in the first place in flagrant disregard for the rule of law.

    Think of it another way... is it right that the Watch Tower Society should be allowed to "take the law into their own hands", but not Anonymous? You will probably say that "two wrongs don't make a right", but the Watch Tower organization is for secrecy, whereas Anonymous (in this case, at least) is for transparency. A "check and balance" if you will!!

    Your above post doesn't seem to address these points specifically.

    Please note, I'm not wholly comfortable with all of this - I just think SOMETHING needs to be done, and I believe we need all the friends we can get. There are casualties in any war, including "friendly fire". Surely a drastic measure such as the one proposed, although potentially very risky, would be worth it in the long-run if it crippled the organization (credibility-wise) and forced it to comply with the law, thereby severely weakening its ability to conceal paedophiles in the future?

    Surely the protection of innocent children takes priority in all of this? In other words, do you honestly believe the negatives outweigh the positives if the paedophile database were to be leaked?

    Cedars

  • Pig
    Pig

    I think it's good to attack the watchtower policy that has allowed child abuse, but some people on this board seem to think that ALL JW's are pedos.

    It makes it sound like scary apostate stuff. Pedos are the most hated members of society therfore we must call JW's pedos. It's really childish.

    It seems one in 5 threads is about JW's being a child abuse org.

  • Miss Led
    Miss Led

    I am so exited about this development, and hope the truth about this organization will be exposed once and for all.

    I just have one question and please forgive my ignorance, but if the whereabouts of this secret archive is located at Patterson, why hasn't there been issued a search warrant to these premises?

  • jamesmahon
    jamesmahon

    Hi Cedars. Sure.

    Any "witch hunt" that ensues from Anonymous publishing the Watchtower's list is not their fault, but the fault of the Watch Tower Society for holding the list in the first place in flagrant disregard for the rule of law.

    Think of it another way... is it right that the Watch Tower Society should be allowed to "take the law into their own hands", but not Anonymous? You will probably say that "two wrongs don't make a right", but the Watch Tower organization is for secrecy, whereas Anonymous (in this case, at least) is for transparency. A "check and balance" if you will!!

    I am afraid any witch hunt is their fault as much as the watchtowers. It is not right for the watchtower to take the law into their own hands. But publishing this list as I said is not going to suddenly make them obey the law. They will not be hurt by this list being published. It's existence is already in the public domain. If there is questions about its illegality then it is beholden upon a citizen to inform the law enforcment agencies of its existence to investigate this. It is very much a case of two wrongs definately not making a right here but potentially causing a lot more wrongs.

    There are casualties in any war, including "friendly fire". Surely a drastic measure such as the one proposed, although potentially very risky, would be worth it in the long-run if it crippled the organization (credibility-wise) and forced it to comply with the law, thereby severely weakening its ability to conceal paedophiles in the future?

    Surely the protection of innocent children takes priority in all of this? In other words, do you honestly believe the negatives outweigh the positives if the paedophile database were to be leaked?

    Sorry Cedars, going to have to really strongly disagree with what you are saying here but I do fully understand your sentiment for wanting something to be done. As said in my previous post I cannot see how these actions will force the WTBTS to change its policy. The Conti case and thousands that will follow will do that.

    I honestly do believe the negatives far outweigh the positives. I see no real positives. I see this resulting in more children being put at risk of harm not less because of this. And this is my view based upon research by the NSPCC. This is an organisation hardly out to protect child molestors is it? You are better than your comment about 'friendly fire' as well. Some of these friendly fire victims will be children - children of fathers who have been falsely accused for example. It is never right to punish innocent people to try to catch people who are guilty. That surely is the definition of a witch hunt. We must not let our hatred of the organisation sully our good judgement. Maybe we could suggest to anonymous other things they could try to get hold of. Minutes of Governing Body meetings when these things have been discussed? Surely that would be far more damaging.

  • cedars
    cedars

    jamesmahon

    I see no real positives.

    Then it's perhaps worthless for me to debate with you further on this. We must agree to disagree!

    Cedars

  • jamesmahon
    jamesmahon

    It isn't worthless Cedar at all. The positives you see when you look at them objectively do not exist. If we are all focussed on protecting children we should be strongly encouraging anonymous not to do this as it is more likely to harm children than protect them. We should be encouraging them to find internal documents that show organisational cover up that is not in the public domain. It is this that was most damaging to the catholic church. I implore everyone on this board to be objective about this. Read the NSPCC report. Think about how we could guide anonymous to find information that would really help the cause rather than doing something that will change little but potentially will harm children and, yes, innocent people caught in the crossfire

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