Chariklo - here is the wikipedia article on Anonymous...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_%28group%29
Cedars
Anonymous Message to Watchtower
by jwleaks 343 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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blindnomore
Pig, I have a question for you.
"Were Foot soliders of Hitler guilty or innocent?"
When my child was molested by the Jehovah's Witness serial rapist/pedophile(there are at least 3 victims of his that I personally know of, age 13-14), it was us, victim and victim's family, who were witch hunted by the local elders and had gone through the Hell of 'Religious Inqusition.' I can't even describe in words all the suffering and persecution that we endured by the elders and the 2 Circuit Overseers. Do you know how it all started and processed? It was motivated by Rank and File of JWs's blind obidence and loyalty toward their elders. All the lies, malicious slanderings, vicious gossipping, you name it! Jehovah's witnessess, as a whole, are guilty of crime of condoning and obstructing the justice!
Jamesmahon, there are always some innocent people behind bar in all crimes.
I posted this on the ohter thread. In the US, I was told by the DCFS(Division of Children and Family Service), only 20 some percent(don't remember exact number) of victims eventually report sexual crimes and only 4 % of them will be prosecuted. The main reason for that is a social stigma. Usually victims will be blamed and humiliated not to mention long and emotional draining process of legal procedure. You might want to remember that there are 1000s of 1000s victims are suffering without any justice while protecting criminals in the name of protecting potential few wrong conviction as you have mentioned.
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jamesmahon
Blindnomore
So what you are saying is that despite:
- children's protection organisations saying that releasing names of convicted child molestors increases the risk of harm to children
- the fact that this will lead to vigilantism against against innocent people and their families
- the fact that we are talking about investigations here by completely unqualified people that has led to this list being generated
- me telling you that as a victim of abuse I would find such a release of names upsetting. You might not of but I would. Every case is different.
you, in your wisdom, anonymous in their wisdom (because I guess they know all about how sexual predators behave when their names are published) and most of the people it appears on this board still think it is a good idea. Can you please tell me what logic you are using that says releasing this list of accused men (and women) will result in one child being safe from abuse? Because just like in Conti's case, the predatory child molestors will already have moved on. The ones that have not yet and are named will just move to another area, change their name and have complete anonymity. That is what convicted child molesters try to do even when they have law enforcement officers keeping tabs on them. How do you think someone that has not even been convicted going to behave. Sure, they may not abuse the children in the congregation they are in anymore, but they will just swap congregations and start again anew. So your child may have been protected if this list was released but someone else's would not of.
You need to look at the evidence. This activity reduces the protection of children, not increases it. When you couple that with this being a list generated by kangaroo investigations by a bunch of at best ill educated and at worst down right vindictive elders meaning there is a significant possibility that a sizeable minority are completely innocent on this list. And guess what, it is the innocent ones that will stay and try to clear their names rather than just evaporate away. And they will be the ones who have had the mud thrown that will stick and be left with the consequences. You say look at the 1000s that need justice. I do which is why I say this is a stupid idea as it means potentially 1000s more will need justice.
I find the thoughts of some on this board that somehow if a bunch of innocent people get tarred as child molestors than that is ok so long as some abused people get justice. Perhaps you would like to tell me the ratio you find acceptable? 100 innocent men for one child molestor correctly identified? Is it ten? Is it one? Is justice for one person worth the injust loss of liberty and family of another? What if the person wrongly accused was your brother, your dad or god forbid you? It is a horrible, slippery path that a few here seem to be suggesting we should go down.
Witch hunt is what it is. So a few die in the dunking? So what provided we catch the witch. But when the witch hunters come calling the real witches all turn into cats and run into the forest.
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cedars
jamesmahon
Can you please tell me what logic you are using that says releasing this list of accused men (and women) will result in one child being safe from abuse?
That's a sweeping assertion, that the release of the list, and the resulting publicity, won't potentially result in less children being abused in the future - namely, if the Watchtower is forced to change its policies or shrinks to a scale where less people are affected by them.
It's weird - sometimes your arguments make perfect sense, but other times I wonder what planet you're on.
Cedars
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flipper
JAMESMAHON- So, are you a witch ? A JW apologist / child molester apologist witch ? Inquiring minds want to know. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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flipper
If Anonymous organization needs a secret spy or mole to infiltrate Patterson, I'll gladly volunteer if they help with my air fare. Let's send a crack team within to fetch us a pedophile list . I'll get my hair cut and try to look spiffy to fit in. WT society needs to be brought down like yesterday and years ago already. It's WAY overdue. Just discussing this may start the fear /paranoia factor developing inside the WT society and thats a good thing. Use their own perverted psychological abuse tactics against them. Why not ? Too many people have suffered by their Nazi tactics. They are criminally negligent
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DT
The Watchtower Society has a policy of removing elders and pedophiles from their positions if they are known by the community or congregation as being pedophiles. If only the elders and headquarters know about it, the pedophiles are sometimes allowed to remain in the position. If this list is made public, it would result in certain pedophiles being removed from positions of authority. I see that as a big win for victims. Sure they might move somewhere else, but not as elders. If they change their names, they would have to start over and it could years to rebuild the level of trust that they had before. Releasing the list could also result in police investigations for cases that the Watchtower Society has managed to keep concealed.
The Watchtower Society has made a situation where innocent people have been harmed and will continue to be harmed (both victims of abuse and those wrongly accused), but I think publicizing the list is necessary to remove pedophiles as elders and ministerial servants and to alert parents of potential dangers in their own congregations.
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cedars
flipper - sounds like we need to get an Ocean's Eleven team together to infiltrate the Great Spiritual Casino at Brooklyn. I'll be Brad Pitt, and you can be George Clooney!
Seriously though, I think Anonymous have got it figured out. They've told us what they plan to do. It's now just a question of waiting for developments to unfold...
Cedars
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jamesmahon
Cedars. Have you read the NSPCC report? One of the reasons they looked in this area was because they needed to counter why they were not being more supportive of a Megan's Law. What they found was shocking. Instead of keeping people safe naming convicted pedophiles actually sends a number of them underground and back into offending behaviour. They found no evidence that naming child molestors in your community had stopped a single child molestor offending. Changing targets, possibly, but stopping offending? No.
This list is even worse. 23,000 men, most of whom have not been convicted but only accused, will likely have their name all over the web. Of course when it becomes public knowledge some in congregations will look at the list even if they are told not to. These people will then spread the names throughout the congregation. Now ignore any reports or anything else and just think through what will happen. Most of these people will have no convictions remember so unless the victim is willing to come forwards there will be no police action against individuals unless the victims decide they are ready to go through that. So lets look at the possible outcomes depending on the situation for named individuals:
- The person is a child molestor and is no longer a JW. Will not make any difference.
- The person is a child molestor but has changed his name since the allegation and moved to a different area. Will make no difference.
- The person is a child molestor and is still an active JW but has not changed his name. If he still wishes to molest children he will, like convicted child molestors do, go 'underground' - probably change his name and move to a different area. Again, not a single child protected.
- The person is not a child molestor. The accusation was false. Perhaps we can just imagine what happens to him.
So it is not my 'assertion' that naming accused child molestors stops molestation. It is the view of the NSPCC and other children's protection bodies. And this is for convicted child molestors. People that are actual child molestors but have only been accused will have far more opportunity to slip quietly away and molest again than those that have been convicted. You might not like it, it might run against what seems to be common sense but unless you can find a flaw in the NSPCCs' position and/or the logic above then I'm afraid I'm right. And I mean afraid. I wish it was as easy as just to name the bastard and everyone could avoid them. I might even accept a few of your 'friendly fire' casualties. But it just does not work and as stated a few times now - the evidence from child protection bodies says it does not work, not me.
As said previously I don't see the list being published reducing the size of the organisation. 'Growth' as such as the organisation sees in the developed world is largely through born ins. If someone at the door was going to become a witness and has access to the internet they can already find out a huge amount of information on jehovahs witness protection of child molestors. They will easily find this list exists with the number of names. How exactly will the names on this list make any difference to their decision. And witnesses already in either now all about the child abuse issue and can overlook it or just walk around in a cloud.
What could make a real difference as I said before is real internal documents with governing body members making some juicy comments on child abuse (like the one by Jaracz was it along the lines of "it is no worse than other sexual immorality"). Now that stuff would place the Governing Body under significant questioning from new and existing members.
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DT
Anonymous must know that getting this list could be pretty difficult if the Watchtower Society simply disconnects any computer with the data on it from the Internet. This makes me wonder if they might already have the list and are just waiting for a good time to announce it.
