WT Society Feels they are Above the Laws of the Land - Even in their own....

by flipper 43 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Finkelstein

  Its quite obvious now that the WTS. knows that pedophilia is a serious crime in most countries, its not just a simple sin like adultery or fornication.

  What the WTS. had been doing though is keeping their public image clean by not reporting these situations to the proper legal authorities in a very

  irresponsible way. One that put the public at risk and didn't level a semblance of justest for the crimes by these perpetrators.

  So you might say yes they put themselves in a higher position above the laws of the land by not respecting them, done so

  intensionally to protect their own self imposing public image.
• 

  Band on the Run

  Frankly, I am confused. Altho they have a legal right to do so, the spirit of the elder communication is to distance onself so far from any criminal investigation that sanctions would be imposed otherwise. The first duty of the elders is to call the Legal Department. Why not call their own private lawyers in their community?

  I feel clergy/penitnent prvilege is at stake. It is too large a field to research now. They want to have what I consider are two contradictory positions, (and it is interesting to note that they both arise in pedophilia cases). In Australia, they claimed that only the GB could bind the WT. Perhaps a few other key officials. Certainly not ordinary members. Their argument in Australia was the elders are NOT Jehovah;s Witnesses. Congregations are independent of the WT. I do believe this assessment applies to several well-know religions, such as Quakers, which are loose associatons with little centralized control.

  My question has always been what the common law and most states require for attorney-client privilege to be established?. Is it permissible const'lly to restrict it only a pentinent and a clery member. I understand that the govt can't decide who is clergy in most instances. They can't impose clergy standards on a religion. The judge in the Conti case evidently decided not to allow the privilege b/c more than one clergy and a penitent were involved.

  I wish we could make copies of the recent l etters to elders very public.

  Someone once mentioned that the WT once gave legal instructions (to whom? what is the relationship between the legal department and an elder legally? I understand that it is a religious guru for the elder. My gut tells me there prob. isn't a legal relationship. ) for elders to not write to the Legal Department but to use a pay phone so no documentation exists.

  I don't think what Anonymous is doing is wise. Why can't a single Witness be as forthright as Ray Franz was when young children are at stake? Too many people are involved in this at the WT level. A leak has to develop.

  Normally, JWs matters get lost in the media. Sandusky, the Roman Catholic Church, the time is now.

  It would be interesting to see how the Roman Catholic Church is currently responding- have they changed their policies substantially?- and what the WT is doing.
• 

  blondie

  The thing to remember is the WTS does not consider itself bound by the secular laws, especially when they feel they are protecting the organization (and themselves). They give the impression that they are complying but twist it behind the scenes. A non-jw lawyer would more likely not risk their status as lawyers to support WTS deceptions.
• 

  King Solomon

  Thats the problem with taking snippets out of context: without seeing the entire flow of what surrounds, it's impossible to know what was said the sentence before.... It's also impossible to tell if the prior page had explained that reporting was mandatory (depends on State law), or if authorities had already been notified and child was removed by Child Protective Services; AFTER that initial investigation the authorities are now conducting a more thorough formal investigation, digging deeper for possible criminal prosecution by looking for incriminating evidence to support a case (possibly a need to subpoena congregation records).

  BTW, obtaining a subpoena is NOT the first thing done in a criminal investigation. In fact, LEOs need to have probable cause to support a request, and need to provide the judge with step-wise evidence indicating probable cause to justify getting one. Subpoenas are NOT fishing licenses for LEOs, hoping to find evidence: they generally have to be very specific and detailed re: what they're looking for. If not, the request is denied, with orders to narrow the the scope of the request, or to obtain more evidence to support it.

  Smart Baby alluded to the fact that child abuse is a criminal matter, unlike adultery and fornication, which generally aren't even civil matters (depending on the State).
• 

  blindnomore

  Another statement :, " Never turn over records, notes, or other documents or reveal any confidential matter sought by subpoena without first receiving legal direction from the Legal department. " And then, " strict confidentiality must be maintained to avoid unnecessary entanglement with secular authorities who may be CONDUCTING A CRIMINALINVESTIGATION of the matter. "

  Yep! This is exactly what happened to us. The elders lied to the police chief and the detectives under the direction of the Watchtower Legal Department. It wasn't about the 5th amendment. It was all about protecting their own skinn and hiding elders criminal involvment from the authorities. They even informed the rapist/pedophile a police investigation and advised the pedo to get rid of any incriminating information from his computer. The local elders also worked with the mother of the rapist/pedo to disfellowship us, victim and victim's family.

  These people are CRIMINALS, nothing more or less!
• 

  King Solomon

  Blindnomore, well that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax: destruction of evidence, interference with an active Police investigation, etc.

  Problem is, you'd need someone inside the organization to turn informant, as it's extremely difficult for LEOs to penetrate a cultish closed society (like trying to send undercover officers into Amish: they'd stick out like a sore thumb).
• 

  Chariklo

  When I was "studying", my pioneer elderette study conductor emphasised to me several times that Jehovah's Witnesses, although respectful of the laws of whichever land they lived in, were nevertheless under a different jurisdiction.

  Because the Governing Body and the Society (and by extension the elders) represent Jehovah, I was told, it is ultimately they who are to be obeyed. In essence, that confirms the proposition in the title of the thread. They are indeed, in their own minds, above the law of the land.

  Both my study conductor and her elder husband, very linked in with the London Bethel, and with connections and links to the GB etc, were explicit and adamant about this.
• 

  blindnomore

  KS, Undercover Officers would be really helpful. In the meantime, some of us have to do what we can to get justice. That's the reason why I am still attending the meetings. I have gathered some very useful evidences.
• 

  King Solomon

  Cheriko said:

  "Because the Governing Body and the Society (and by extension the elders) represent Jehovah, I was told, it is ultimately they who are to be obeyed. In essence, that confirms the proposition in the title of the thread. They are indeed, in their own minds, above the law of the land."

  Oh, I fully understand the reference, which any ex-JW knows. But it's another matter of proving it in these types of situations, because non-specific talk about principles is cheap, and doesn't present much in the way of evidence (it's also likely protected under freedom of religion protections)....
• 

  King Solomon

  Bnm said:

  "KS, Undercover Officers would be really helpful. In the meantime, some of us have to do what we can to get justice. That's the reason why I am still attending the meetings. I have gathered some very useful evidences."

  Good: more power to you (and don't get caught, or they'll set their Shun Guns to "super-ignore"!)