by flipper 43 Replies latest jw friends
"I strongly recommend looking into the possibility of obtaining malpractice clergy insurance."
Of course I disagree. Even if someone feels that they have to stay involved, stop being an elder. If you really really really think you can make a difference by staying an elder, you are wrong. stop being an elder. Definitely do not handle any judicial or otherwise serious matters. Just refuse.
Thanks for all the replies ! Was working all last night wasn't home to reply back. Will now.
JAMIEBOWERS- I've talked with a board member here who is familiar with the WT society tampering with child abuse evidence. I'm glad to hear you made some comments on the Anonymous site, I did as well a couple times.
FINKELSTEIN- Not reporting child abuse should be at LEAST a moral crime as you stated, and for those in positions of authority in different organizations it can be an ACTUAL crime if they don't report it in reporting states. WT society is trying to protect their aLLEGED good reputation so that the general public will nOT find out about the horridly stinky skeletons in their closet. They are scurrying around like rats jumping off a sinking ship right now.
BAND ON THE RUN - I think the elders distance themselves from any criminal liability because they are constantly being pressured from Bethel legal to distance themselves from any criminal liability. To change ANY WT policies it has to be changed at the TOP of the organization- whether that be the Governing Body or the WT corporate attorney level. But I truly feel NOTHING is going to change policy- wise unless forcible pressure is applied against the WT leaders to do so. They won't " meekly " submit into the night for anything or anybody. In my opinion that's why I think the Anonymous involvement is a GOOD thing. Because if enough pressure can be applied and details get exposed to the media and secret communications between bethel legal and elders are revealed, plus perhaps the Pedophile Database - it would be a HUGE blow to ANY credibility the WT society tries to maintain as a facade to public opinion.
I don't really know if we'd see another " Ray Franz " type higher up WT person come out on his or her own exposing the WT society's faulty policies , especially without a safety net, or a support group to help them move on and not be fearful. THAT is where Anonymous comes in. If enough undercover JW's can cooperate with Anonymous and expose the WT society's inner workings, we may see even yet mORE media coverage in the near future exposing the WT society. I'm all for it.
BLONDIE- Exactly. WT society leaders do NOT feel they are bound by man made laws - especially when it doesn't serve the best interests of the kindom, er WT society interests. So I feel their hand has to be forced here.
KING SOLOMON- It IS going to take someone, or multiple someones - becoming informants and assisting in the exposing of WT policies and communications. I feel that is what Anonymous is working on as we speak. If you check the pastebin.com site out- lots of activity and communication has occured in the last few days.
BLINDNOMORE- You are correct, I agree. The WT society is guilty of covering up important evidence which would result in convictions, criminal indictments, of higher up WT representatives if only the paper trail could be tied together with inside JW's helping expose them. I feel it s a personal responsibility on my part to do what I can to expose these things too. If we all felt that way we could get much accomplished. Work as a team.
CHARIKLO- Good point you make. I believe ALL of us as JW's were told to always put WT laws ahead of man made laws. Because the GB tricked everybody into thinking they were appointed by God - so it put people in fear and captivity
To be fair...
They are correct that often authorities will ask for information they AREN'T entitled to and some people or organisations will comply. Even if they aren't LEGALLY required to do so. So as far as not handling over confidential information they are correct that the branch and legal should be consulted first.
I've seen police officers show up and say to someone "you HAVE to do this or we do THIS". Sometimes it's just empty threats and posturing hoping that someone will comply. However often when someone says, hey, NO I don't have to do this they back down. Unless there is a warrant, it's probably an empty threat or a fishing expedition.
BALAAMSASS- Indeed our friend Blindnomore has been put through the mill and suffered horrific injustices. She needs our support !
MIDWICH CUCKOO- Good point. It makes you wonder WHAT the quality of notes would be between the elders and the WT society ? I'm sure it's heavily laced with covering up the WT society's legal backside though for sure. And yes indeed, WT society considers themself above man made laws.
SMIDDY- Good point Smid, we can never give up. We have to keep on fighting . Can't let these perpetrators keep getting off scotfree.
PHIZZY- Very good point that you make that iF the WT society was REALLY God's organization- wouldn't elders be bound by morality and ethics to automatically report child abuse and be MORE concerned with exposing the child molesters than being exposed themselves ? WT society needs to have a policy where police authorities are contacted IMMEDIATELY upon reports of child abuse. But WTS won't do that- they won't admit to errors or fault.
00DAD- THanks bud. Very true, the WT society hypocrisy IS astounding, I can't believe I ever trusted them either. I was coerced by my JW family to trust them without using my own mind actually.
HEAVEN- It definitely is obstruction of justice by the WT society anyway you cut it.
LIFE IS TOO SHORT- What you experienced with that JW stalker threatening you and your husbands life was nothing short of horrific. What a terrifying experience ! You are right the WT society doesn't care about protecting individual members needs in the organization, it's just the WT organizations needs that are a priority to them. I hope they go down in flames.
BLINDNOMORE- You are right- the WT society wants to keep JW members AND elders in the dark as much as possible about any criminal goings on because that way the organization can continue to proliferate and grow. Once the exposure comes out and the light gets turned onto these cockroach WT leaders - it will be a day of reckoning with police authorities, and of course WT leaders don't want that. So it works for them for awhile to keep everybody in the dark as to what they're up to.
RETROVIRUS- You are right- WT society leaders only deem it necessary to obey the laws of the land if it suits WT society needs and purposes. Otherwise they'll engage in criminal activities just to protect organizational assets and finances. Real sweet guys. ( Tongue in cheek of course).
ON THE WAY OUT- I agree with you. If there are elders who don't believe in it- they should get out and escape now while they can. Otherwise, lots of elders are running around getting nervous wondering if THEY will be the fall guys for WT leaders criminal activities and cover ups. It's getting creepy and interesting at the same time
BALTAR 447- The problem is that police authorities ARE legally entitled to be made aware of crimes that occur within congregations especially in reporting states. If a child abuse crime goes days and days without being reported while the good old elder boys wait on Bethel legal to direct them- then one or two more children may experience further child abuse and be raped again by child molesters due to delays. Not good.
In the elders letter it even stated that elders are NOT to allow police to search kingdom halls without a search warrant, Even if they HAVE a warrant, eldes are to delay them and insist on looking at it and reading it. Bottom line is the WT society is going to do everything they can to hinder any possible criminal investigations so they won't look bad to the outside world and media. AND they don't want leaks of info getting out to the 7 million JWs either. It's all about covering WT hiny
Hey Flipper:
I agree the WT is reprehensible. But I would not let ANY law enforcement officer search my property without a search warrant(unless they barge in claiming probable cause but that’s for the lawyer to argue later, and possibly filing a civil lawsuit). You are within your rights to prevent unreasonable search and seizure. I would advise ANYONE not to allow a search of one’s property without a search warrant, so that part I have no problem with. I was just saying that this part should be standard practice. And even under a criminal investigation you shouldn’t say ANYTHING to anyone without a lawyer. Watch this video to get a law professor’s take on why you should NEVER speak to the police.
Thw WTS should simply create their own soveriegn nation like the Vatican. There are a few places on earth that are abandoned and not owned or claimed by any country. There is a perfect spot in the middle of the desert between Sudan and Egypt which might be to their taste.
BALTAR- THanks for the you-tube. Interesting. I agree that we should never let police check our premises unless they have a search warrant, I agree. I feel that in SOME situations you should talk to police once a search warrant has been issued. But I agree that discretion and caution is in order because as the old expression goes, " you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. " I get that. Thus discretion is in order.
But I feel that if the WT society IS guilty in aiding and abetting child abusers, they SHOULD be forced to speak in a court of law. There NEEDS to be some order in law enforcement which requires guilty , criminally negligent organizations to pay the piper and come clean .
MP- Exactly. I feel the WT society already HAS created their own sovereign nation as they feel that the laws of the land they don't have to answer to. Send WT leaders to Sudan or the desert ? How 'bout sending 'em to freaking Neptune, Pluto, or Uranus way out in the universe ? I think I'd be more comfortable with THAT option. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
Baltar, I agree and appreciate the law of right not to be searched illegally and right to remaine silent. But did you know about 'NO- knock warrant'? I had a Bible study who was caught under this law.
I was on the phone yesterday with one of the lawyers who represented victims of recent Jehovah's Witness child molestation case. I was stunned by some of the lies he was told by the Watchtower lawyers and elders. The lawyer wasn't even aware of the fact he was lied and mislead by the Watchtower people who claim to be the God's clean Organization. He said, "I am sure they were't the only lies I was told by them"
There are some good reasons behind for the existence of 'No-knock warrant'! It' too bad the Watchtower is well protected by law as a religious group. Especially since Waco tragedy in 1993, the Government has been extremly caustious in ther dealings with religious groups. A a lot less threatening citizen, like my female bible study, can be scrutinized without warrant nor knocking by the law enforcement, and yet a parasite of human society like abusive Watchtower is given all kinds of rights and protection.(the law proved to be beneficial in the case of my bible study so I am not saying the No-knock warrant was ineffective. My only resentment is Watchtower has not allowed themselves to be benefited by it. Remember what the Society always saying? The discipline is to save your soul. DF is the loving arrangement from Jehovah, blah blah blah..)
In the cost of innocent childrens' wlefare.
BLINDNOMORE- That shows how smarmy and crookedly dishonest WT attorneys and WT leaders are- they'll lie their anus off just to keep a " pretend " appearance of alleged respectability. It's disgusting. I can only imagine how surprised that child abuse attorney was when he discovered the WT society lies about virtually everything. Yet it sounds like he kind of expected it after seeing the pattern developing of WT lies though.
I agree with you- it's ridiculous that many huge religious and other organizations get off scot free while individuals are scrutinized much more closely in many criminal cases. Unfortunately money talks in this world and a lot of payoffs go on out of court and under the table to buy silence. Another thing that needs to change. There needs to be more media exposure about WT society indiscretions and lawlessness in how they tolerate abuse of children. Candace Conti was a start, but more cases need to be publicized
