Dont blame the witnesses, its the Bible...

by sleepy 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    Christ is present where ever his truth is proclaimed.
    We teach that the true church is marked by
    1. The proclamation of the truth of his word (gospel rightly preaches, the historic redemptive acts of Christ leading to the proclamation of justification by faith alone which is an act of God alone.)

    2. Proper adminastration of the sacraments (unfortunatly this is a sticky point with baptist and lutherens

    3. Church disapline (and on the positive end church decipleship)

    Bible believing christians like:
    Orthodox Presbyterian Church
    Presbyterian Church in America
    Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America
    Reformed Church in the United States
    United Reformed Church

    As well as verious calvinistic baptist churches that hold on to the 1689 London Baptist confession
    and other verious independent local reformed congragational churched that subscribe truely to the Westminster Confession Standards, Three Formes of Unity or the Salvoy Decloration of faith.

    ARE true churches

    Roman Catholic church on the otherhand is a false and SATANIC APOSTATE church. and the Westminster Confession of Faith rightly declairs

    ChapterXXV:VI
    "There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God."

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    OK, but then lets look at China, The Former Soviet Republic, and North Korea and Vietnam to see society WITHOUT a bible.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • ChristFollower
    ChristFollower
    So you can do what you like, and still be a follower of Jesus?
    And who,s interpretation is that?

    I am not sure what you are talking about, Sleepy. I did not say that followers of Jesus could do whatever they want to. Followers of Jesus Christ are to obey his commandments. If someone claims to be saved, and yet lives an unrepentant life that is contrary to the Bible, we would say that he was not saved to begin with.

    As for the Catholic Church, let us not forget that Martin Luther was saved when he was saved while in the Catholic Church Certainly not all Catholics are saved. But the Catholic Church has always subscribed to the Orthodox historic creeds regarding the trinity. That is something. The balanced approach is to affirm their confession of the triune God, but to repudiate their accursed teaching of Salvation through works.

    I have no doubt that their are individuals (few though they may be) who are Catholic, and are also saved. This is because salvation is through Christ's finished work, through faith, plus nothing. Salvation is not through belonging to an Organization or Church.

    The following is twisted JW logic:

    John is a boy. John is a thief. Therefore all boys are thieves.

    As obvious as it is that this is false logic, JW's use it anyway as follows:

    John is a Catholic, Catholics are Christian, Catholics are apostate, therefore all Christians are apostate.

    It is clear this logic is false, but is what JW's use. Here is another.

    John claims to be Christian. John is a thief. Therefore, John and all Christians are not Christian.

    This is also clearly wrong. But how about this:

    JW's claim to be Christian, and claim to use the Bible. JW's are evil because they kill their children by denying blood, therefore all Christians are evil.

    This also makes absolutely no sense at all. Blaming Christians, for what JW's do, when JW's specifically deny being any part of Christendom, is ridiculous.

  • jerome
    jerome

    If (as many of you believ) the Bible isnt the word of God then you really must have a problem with explaining its prophecies.

    When Something was written a few hundred years ago and could predict things like,

    The world comming under one government

    False christs

    False prophets

    The dangers of associating with such false prophets and false christs

    Rumors of war

    I could go on and on,

    How could you explain these all as coincidence?

    I would hate to have to do the explaination myself.

  • rem
    rem
    The world comming under one government

    I don't remember this prophecy, but regardless, can you point to any time in history where the world was under one government? Do you believe the world is under one government now?

    False christs
    False prophets
    The dangers of associating with such false prophets and false christs
    These are prophecies? Nothing spectacular here. It's like Joseph Smith saying there would be anti-Mormons and associating with them would be dangerous to ones of Mormon faith. Oooh. Scary!

    Rumors of war
    Can you point to a time in history where there have been no wars?

    I could go on and on,
    How could you explain these all as coincidence?
    I would hate to have to do the explaination myself.
    You haven't even started. I don't see any prophecies in your list. Would you like to point out something specific?

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • jerome
    jerome

    When I say that the world would come under onr government, I dident mean that it is under one government right now, I mean that it will be according to the Bible.

    And judging from the fact that the world was not even fully known and explored back then, that is quite a statement to have been made. (I cant rem the exact scripture but if you need it i will find it because it is there)

    That prophecy (yes it is a prophecy) of the world comming under one rule is related to people obtaining the mark of the beast, you know in the real last days (not witness last days).

    Isnt it possible even very likely that the world would come under one government with the way things are going now. Do I need to say the word "Globalization."

    Please rebute this one, take your time.

    *******************************

    You draw reference to J. Smith.

    If Smith had predicted that there would be people preaching against the Mormons then that would not have been a big deal, why?

    Commonsense for one. Certain things are obvious.

    Let me explain.

    If I were living in the year 700A.D. and I started a new religion and I predicted that I would get opposition from the Pope, would that have been a big deal? I dont think that it would have been because it was obvious.

    Even though Smith was born only a few hundred years ago one would think that he would have expected opposition.

    Some predictions are obvious some things are truly prophetical. Some things may be a mixture of both.

    But the Bible warned of those who would come in Jesus' name saying that "I am the Christ" and that they would decieve many.

    The Bible also warned about (fortold) False Prophets who would try to decieve the very elect. And that they are dangerous mentally spiratually and physically. The Bible says that they should be avoided.

    How do you reconcile this with the fact that the watchtower has made false prophecies in the past (thus becoming a false prophet) and that it is very dangerous to associate with them? Would you want to become a Jehovahs Witness? Was the Bible right or wrong in this instance?

    Is associating with the False Prophets and not folowing the guidance the Bibles warning against organisations such as the Watchtower dangerous to these three aspects of your health:

    1) Mental Health;
    (Drepression among other mental illnesses caused as a direct result of associating with the watchtower)

    2) Spritual Health;
    (Loss of faith in the superme being caused as a direct result of finding out that all that you believed in was a lie.)

    3) Physical Health;
    (Death by following phoney medical advice given by the Watchtower)?

    2000 years ago Jesus said that these things would happen if you dident listen to his warning.

    Was he wrong?

    The Bible explicitly states that false prophets are to be ignored because they are dangerous. Plain and simple.

    Do you consider a warning from J.Smith to have the same value as a warning coming from the Bible?

    Then that should mean that anybody preaching against the book of Mormon would be evil.

    (I dont mean to put words in your mouth but this seems reasonable)

    [I also have nothing against Mormons presonally]

    Call it coincidence but one thing is for sure it has been predicted a few hundred years ago and it has been proven true.

    There is always the argument though that anybody that comes in tha name of a 2000 year old dead man should not be believed but there is more to it than that.

    The thing about other Biblical prophecies is that they have not occured as yet so you cannot apply many aspects of books like revelation to present day events. Because they are for a certain time period which we have not come apon yet.

    That is why they are called prophecies. Because they will happen in the future.

    ***************************

    Right now I cant think of many prophecies that arent coincidential but[red] if you give me time I will find them.[red] I am fairly new to the Bible still so that explains my ignorance.

    Plagues. Ok I have to admit that any body could have predicted this.
    [ AIDS is a plague ]

    Earthquakes in various places. Anybody could have predicted this also. Even so there were always earthquakes in many places so that must have more meaning to it.

    Children having children. Children were always having children.

    Men will be lovers of themselves. Men were always like that even back to Soddom.

    The word will be spread throughout the all inhabited lands.

    Now this could happen by accident with all the progress made in modern transport and travel but it could not necessiraly have been predicted by anyone. Call it a lucky guess.

    If I said that this website will be known throughout all cyberspace than in theroy it could happen but not necissarily.

    This generation will by no means pass away... Hasent been fullfilled as yet.
    Oh by the way for those of you who think that the Bible is unreliable because you assume that Jesus was preaching the "Kingdom of the Lord is at hand" please take a look at

    Mark 8:12
    "And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation."
    KJV
    The world wasent supposed to end then and every one who thought that it would end "soon" has been proven wrong. The Bible dident set a specific date for the time of the end. Only man has done that and he has always been wrong.

    It is true that these prophecies could be coincidential except for the one about spreading the word every where but just wait till I do a little more research. Then I will come back with more.

    Jerome

    The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

  • sleepy
    sleepy

    Hi Christ follower,

    I believe you are missing the point.

    "John is a boy. John is a thief. Therefore all boys are thieves"

    This is not the logic used by me.

    John is a thief because he believes the bible told him to do it,Jack is a murderer because the bible told him, Jill says your both wrong you should be con men."
    All religions believe they are the right one .All have done things other's would class as wrong.

    You say you correctly understand Jesus, and do what is required by him.
    Thats why I said,
    "So you can do what you like, and still be a follower of Jesus?
    And who,s interpretation is that?"

    The bible stand or falls on whether it is true or not.
    The fact that many bad things have been done in the name of following it's commands adds evidence that maybe it is not Gods word.

  • ChristFollower
    ChristFollower

    sleepy,

    John is a thief because he believes the bible told him to do it,Jack is a murderer because the bible told him, Jill says your both wrong you should be con men
    My point is that the Bible did not teach John to be a thief, The Bible did not teach Jack to be a murderer, and who cares what Jill says.

    Saying that the Bible teaches something is not the same as the Bible actually teaching it.

    What is your point though? What is your solution? Do you want to have all Christians killed? Do you want to have them all put in jail? Better have tried it before: Stalin, Mao. Millions of Christians were killed by the Russians (the old USSR) and by China. You know what? They could not kill faith. Christians are still here, and in those countries. Even Rome couldn't get rid of them.

    Besides, western countries that are predominately Christian (countries of Christendom) are the wealthiest in the world. Hindus don't seem to have much money. The Muslims of Afghanistan are dirt poor, the USSR went under because it was literally bankrupt. Muslims in other countries only have money because of the oil that Christian countries buy.

    I don't see "Athiest Associations" feeding the hungry - I only see Christians and other faith based groups doing it.

    I'll take Christianity and the Bible over athiest countries any day.

  • sleepy
    sleepy

    The point is people interperate the bible in different ways , and can get different things out of it.
    Jehovahs witnesess will let children die.
    Jews will fight for their promised land.
    Catholics stole countries from the native people.
    All belived they were following the Bible.
    What is right to one religion is wrong to another.
    Why have a book that causes so much confusion?
    Do you not know that these people really belive they are following the Bible?

  • ChristFollower
    ChristFollower

    If I have a book on Mathematics, and it is teaching integer arithmetic (2+2 =4 and so on), and I come across a problem that asks what is 2+3? If I answer 7, is it the fault of the Mathematics book that I am unable to add? I don't think so, but according to your logic, it is.

    The Bible did not tell JW's to let their children die.
    The Bible did not tell Catholics to "steal" countries from native people.
    The Bible did not tell Jews to go fight for a "promised land" in Israel.

    Theirs is not an appeal to Sola Scriptura, but to a perverse interpretation of Sola Scriptura. JW's are clearly wrong about the blood issue, and it can be proven from the Bible. I am wrong that 2+3=7, and it can be proven from a Math book. We all know Catholics are wrong - so let's not go there. The Jews reject Jesus Christ, so do you think they are really following the whole Bible?

    Why have a book that causes so much confusion?
    The confusion is of those who refuse to follow God and His word instead of their autonomous human reasoning. The Bible is frankly repugnant to autonomous man. A better question would be: why should we have a book that causes no confusion? I mean, why do expect that God's revelation to man would be so simple that there was no confusion? Why do you place your human expectation on God?

    God exists independently of time, and yet chooses to work within time to accomplish His purposes. God is through all space and through all time. Humans can barely comprehend such a being, and you expect his revelation of His infinite mind to not cause confusion to sinful, rebellious, willfully evil man?

    I can

    sincerely
    believe that 2+3=7, but that doesn't make it so, and it doesn't make me complain that Mathematics should be easier. I don't complain when studying Calculus that the problem is that there shouldn't be something as complicated as Math. Questions regarding the Spiritual realm, and our eternal soul are complicated because the ultimate reality is complicated.

    The Bible tells us that God became flesh and died to redeem us from our sins. This God-Man, this Jesus, is barely within our comprehension, are we to be surprised that the book that explains this cosmic event is not difficult for sinful creatures to understand?

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