Copping Out?

by IslandWoman 40 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  patio34

  Hi IW,

  You said

  Most of us knew the rules. Most of us had the opportunity to read and study their publications and the Bible. Most of us gladly accepted baptism. Most of us believed just as the others believed.

  It seems to me that the most important disclosure (rule) was never told to new JWs and that is if you ever change your mind, there is no way to leave the religion openly. That no disagreement was tolerated without the egregious label of apostate and shunning by your family members just for intellectually disagreeing with them. I would never agree that "we knew the rules." It's upsetting to me that a "veteran" would miss this vital element.

  I have many other points of disagreement with your statement such as the altered 'new light' views on blood, etc., but am going to go have my dinner now.

  Pat

  

  WTBS: Quit peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining.
• 

  safe4kids

  Heaven,

  I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but again I agree with you!

  I also agree with Pope. I too was raised a JW and didn't have any choice in the matter until I was well into adulthood. In fact, it wasn't until I started dealing with issues stemming from childhood abuse that I even started to realize some of the things that were wrong in the borg. I just never questioned anything; I hadn't been taught how to.

  I hope I haven't given anyone the impression that I think the WTS is not responsible for the wrongs they've committed!!! That is certainly not the case (Hey, if I said: "Never may that be so!" wouldn't I sound like a line from the Watchtower?? ) I digress. The brainwashing, the lovebombing, the emotional and spiritual blackmail that goes on is dirty pool and horribly manipulative and abusive. Their sins have massed clear up to the heavens (Arrrghh! someone stop me!)
  However, at some point, a person *can* take responsibility and move forward. It's not fair, they were wrong, they abused me, they hurt me...all of those claims are valid but at what point does clinging to them become a self-defeating behavior? Everyone moves thru this process at their own pace and I don't think anyone has the right to judge where a person is in their personal journey or how slowly/quickly they are moving thru their stuff. Unfortunately, there are many still in who will never take the first few steps along this path and I find that very sad.

  JT, I think I understand the points you made in your post and I think it is often the tendency in society at large, and in the JWs particularly, to blame the victim. That wasn't the impression I had gotten from IW's post, perhaps I missed something? I thought she was speaking more about her own struggle to accept the responsibility for decisions she had made and move on.

  Personally, I don't feel *responsible* for my decision to get baptized at age 13 or 14, whenever it was, as I wasn't old enough or wise enough to understand what that entailed. As has been brought out already in this thread, the majority of newly baptized ones most likely don't really have a clue either. They aren't told "you can enter, but you can never leave" which is wildly dishonest on the part of the society. But dishonesty and deceitfulness from that source are really no surprise to me NOW. 10 years ago I wouldn't have seen it.

  Dana(just glad she's out class)
• 

  IslandWoman

  Beck,

  Thanks for the kind words of acknowledgment!

  JT,

  It is very clear that this poster has done very little research on how High control Groups affect persons

  
  I was speaking from my own experience and from the heart. It that's not good enough JT, well, that's all I got!

  while I agree that the fact i was constipated last year may have little to do with wt, the entire mindset of a sincere jw is influence in every way

  this is why this post while funny and cute really highlights just how the wt has ingrained and programmed the avg jw to think and feel

  
  You have no idea who I am, what my personal experiences in the Watchtower have been, how "ingrained" their teachings were, etc. You don't know what you're saying because you don't know me. Simple, but true.

  but then again many who were adults were introduced to this poison at very low points in their life many times

  loss of a love one, bad health struck them, money problem, living in a country where warefare has gone on day and night for the last 15yrs, no food, just poor living conditions , folks living in huts iwth dirt floors, etc. and with conditions in ones life such as these, along comes some clean cut person with a BOOK CALLED the bible that many folks have been taught to love and cherish all of thier lives, yet they understood little

  and someone shows them God's name and a few other text and , then invite them to a place where folks don't care if you are poor, uneducated, and have nothing and then tell you that YOU ARE SPECIAl

  the person is LOVED bOMBED everyone wants to come to your house for your bible study, you are told that you are making progress, something that you have never been told in your life, you are startng to feel like part of a big happy family, your husband stop gettig drunk and now you are doing the will of god as a family , is it hard at times o yes but in the end you are told it will be worth any thing

  you make life choices based on the fact that god will hook you up, you are told the david said he never say a righteous one bdg for bread
  you too want to be considered a righteuos one and all you have to do is warn folks of the end,

  JT, you know I am sure, that your characterization is partial. I don't think you need to hear the other side, I think you already know. Sure the poor and disadvantaged are in greater danger of following a false religion; that's why the people of India don't eat cows!!

  I certainly hope that IW never gets lost in SE DC and ask a clean cut person on the street for directions late one night, who decides that they just want to F#%K with someone this night and send her up a one way street and she runs into the "P Street Crew"

  i'm sure that some one who reads about her being ganged rape and left for half dead the next day in the paper while they are sipping the "Star Bucks" coffee will say;

  "she knew the rules of getting lost in the HOOD"
  just mey 2

  JT,

  I know SE DC. It ain't no worse than the Bronx me thinks! Please don't try pulling that inner city superiority with me it won't work!
  

  Like I said, you don't know me!

  
  See you around,
  IW
• 

  Justin

  I think it is one of the paradoxes of life that people are BOTH unduly influenced to take certain life courses that are harmful to themselves AND also responsible for their own actions. It is not either/or, it is both/and. In this situation of the JWs, of course people who were raised in it have the least amount of personal responsiblity, while those of us who entered it later in life have more. I think that, regardless of what our own responsbility is, it is of value to express our anger and for a while at least to act AS IF the WT were responsible for the whole mess. Hopefully, we'll get tired of venting and eventually move on.

  But I must say, that even in the case of adult converts, the WT's methods of indoctrination cannot be overlooked. The book study type method of getting the student to repeatedly give the WTs answers to the WTs questions until they no longer have any opinions of their own is very powerful. There are very few religions which indoctrinate in this manner (at least not for adult converts), and those who do could themselves be considered cult-like. Many churches have just a few doctrinal items they would like converts to subscribe to, or they may want them to have an emotional experience. Other churches that require more study are really asking for self-study - they want people to read books (or the Bible) on their own, without the constant back-and-forth question-and-answer process that the WT puts people through. So I sincerely feel that, when people finally wake up and leave, they can claim to have been unduly influenced (even though it is true that they did not HAVE to sit there and take the indoctrination).

  Justin
• 

  IslandWoman

  Pope,

  Hope it works out for you. Don't let the bastards get you down!

  THANK YOU!!!!!!!! And you know, each of us have had our own experiences in the Org. so, if you feel different than me that's OK. We are still connected by a unique although sad experience, maybe that makes us still "brothers" in a way.

  Please Take Care,
  IW
• 

  Pork Chop

  IslandWoman you're a mystery to me. Sometimes I think you're a nutter and a polemicist, and then you start a fine thread like this one. I think you're line of reasoning is very sound, and very healthy. Real life begins when you start to take responsibility for your own actions.

  I've studied "high control" groups quite a bit and in my opinion the WTBS is not very high control. I know many prefer not to look at it that way but to me that just seems to be an excuse for saying "It's not my fault!" Very, very common in those that leave a religion and feel antagonistic toward it.
• 

  teejay

  I'm just troubled by the fact that we or really I, am as much responsible for my own "closed eyes" and my own eagerness to believe as much as everyone there is. Why should I continue to vilify them?

  IW,

  I was a little confused by this thread and, I might add, a little angered by it.

  At first, I thought you were saying that all ex-JWs were making excuses about the years they wasted in the truth and now, one and all, use our JW experience as a cop out for the less than full life we have now. In the very first line of you initial post, you *did* say "we." Seems like you were speaking for more than just Island Woman.

  So when JT posted, I liked what he said. He put things into fine perspective, imo, and offered a fine rebuttal to what I thought was your very judgmental and thoughtless reasoning as you spoke of a world of people you don't know a damn thing about.

  Then, you cleared up my confusion – thank god! As I quote you above, you ask: "Why should I continue to vilify them?" Well... the answer is clear. You shouldn't. You should stop vilifying the JW religion. The sooner you stop doing that, the better. That's one of my very own mottos.

  Like you told JT, he doesn't know you. By the same token, you don't know and cannot speak of anyone else's experience with the WTS or their life since – not a single soul. It's good that you have come to this realization about you. It's also good to know that you're not speaking for any of the rest of us... only yourself and your own experience.

  Thanks for clearing that up for me.
  -----------

  JT,

  Thanks, Man. I liked what you said.
• 

  IslandWoman

  Pork Chop,

  IslandWoman you're a mystery to me.

  Each of us has many facets. The IW persona has served to allow me to express different views; sometimes my own and at times those of others. On this thread I am speaking for myself.

  Thanks for the reply.

  Take Care,
  IW
• 

  Beck_Melbourne

  IW

  I think opinions will always differ on a topic like this...as we all come from different walks of life and have had different experiences in and out of the borg. Some lives have been damaged to a higher degree then others...and some lives have not recovered as quickly as others. I can however, relate to your way of thinking...others cannot...but that doesn't mean you're wrong..nor are you right. You (all of us in fact) will find a way to deal with our own personal experiences...and even if you find just 'one' person who understands you...you're doing okay...don't u think??

  Beck
• 

  terafera

  JT, Kevin, TeeJay,

  Awesome posts and well put!!!

  Something that bothers me is that if you come to this site, you are lumped into a category. I have seen JW's and even IW claim that members slam God on this board. I take offense to that... I don't even consider myself 'apostate'. I think of an apostate that has turned against God. I havent.. I've only turned away from the WTBTS.

  Because I like to have someone who understands me....doesnt mean I vilify or even accuse the Society for being the root of my problems. They are the root of my religious problems, not my problems as a whole. I think because I was born into a Witness family, i had the misfortune of being forced to behave, believe and act out some things that I had no choice in. Did this mess me up regarding God and Christianity? Yes! Did it mess me up in my personal life? NO! I am a happy, well adjusted person, who has found many here post things that I have felt for years.

  If someone says, 'I cant clean my house, my hair is flat and my husband doesnt wanna work!' I say thats not the WTS's fault. But if someone says, ' I didnt go to college, I married a man I didnt love because he was a M.S., I forced my kids to go in service every weekend and the guilt is killing me..' then I say yes, I can empathize and understand the pain resulting from following the WTS.

  While I understand the overall message IW was giving, I dont want everyone lumped into a category. I love God... He and I are close regardless of my history with the Witnesses. Actually, we got closer after I left.