I'm an apostate (and an MS) and haven't finished reading CoC; I don't need to and don't have the time right now. I've read the first 100 pages and it's full of quotations you can easily look up. Do your own research by using the search function. Did you even visit jwfacts.com like I told you? If you have "The Truth" what are you so afraid of?
Let's Discuss Ray Franz's Books
by Recovery 131 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Fernando
Hey Recovery,
I am keen to know how your research is progressing on "the anointed" according to the Watchtower versus according to the New Covenant scriptures, as mentioned in the thread you refer to...
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Fernando
Recovery, it seems it was Ray Franz' view that "legalism" is apostasy (ISOCF).
Please could you share your view and reasons?
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breakfast of champions
What I love about COC is that it doesn't prove anything - I don't think he even sets out to prove anything. It is just a well-written, heartfelt, honest, insiders look into an organization that only a handful of people have any clue about. Whether you want to believe it's gods org or not is up to you.
I get the feeling you never actually read it.
After you do, you shouldn't need a message board full of apostates to think for you. Think for yourself. Use your brain!
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cedars
What I love about COC is that it doesn't prove anything
I know what you mean, but I wouldn't put it quite like that. For what reason is Watchtower correspondence as well as literature quotes meticulously reproduced where relevant if not to prove that, when Ray asserts something about the organization, he isn't making it up? An example would be the letters produced to prove the Mexico/Malawi scandal.
Cedars
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breakfast of champions
CEDARS - agreed. Yes, he certainly does provide an abundance of correspondence proving his stories are true, yet really leaves it to the reader to decide whether or not god is behind the org.
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cedars
breakfast of champions - Yes, I suppose the religious aspect is a matter of faith anyway, which can never really be proven by either side. All that you can say is that the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses require far more mental gymnastics than most other Christian denominations. Over the course of his two books, and by referring only to the scriptures, Ray Franz explains why this is so from a believer's perspective.
Cedars
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The Searcher
@RECOVERY
Hi, let me promise you right away that I am not D/Fd, nor "apostate" - I am a regular publisher who has discovered over the past 3 years or so, that there are things published in our literature which are definitely not in the Bible, and things in the Bible which our literature dare not reveal!
If you are willing to discuss these, I'll be more than happy to share the results of my Bible-based research with you.
A very simple, but clear example - "New Scrolls"; this term has embedded itself into most Witnesses psyche - mine included. This is despite the fact that this false teaching first raised its ugly head in 1985, and has only appeared 4 times since then!
Read Revelation 20:12 and then come back and prove that the 5 references are based on God's Word!!!
Am I thinking of leaving? No! Just as 1st century faithful Jews stuck with the Jewish system till Christ came, despite seeing the 'traditions which made God's word invalid', I will wait patiently and practice truth, not man-made myths.
Keep in mind Paul's words, " Well, then, have I become YOUR enemy because I tell YOU the truth?" (Gal. 4:16)
Not everyone is here looking for an argument - some are genuinely looking for truth.
Just a little p.s. I haven't read Bro. Franz's book - I don't need to - the Scriptures have opened my eyes already.
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King Solomon
Noting the hypocrisy of Recovery demanding we use knowledge of scripture (which would be based on STUDYING and having READ the Bible) to disprove WT's interpretation of parable of FWS, yet now he wants to engage in a "debate" of a book he's not even bothered to read, or is prohibited from reading...
Recovery is not the sharpest tool in the shed, in that he clearly didn't anticipate the conundrum his "offer" presented; he's now at check-mate and is paralyzed from moving, even before the "discussion" began.
Recovery, use that time spent in neuromuscular paralysis wisely, actually contemplating as to source of the paralyzing toxin. Hint: it's not us, or you. :)
For what it matters, I was never baptized, just a kid raised in "The Truth" from 6-13. The only thing that makes me an "apostate" in the eyes of JWs is the fact I challenge the WTBTS by posting here....
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Ding
Recovery,
Since you're interested in discussing Ray's books, why don't you pick a topic from Crisis of Conscience and start us off?
That way, we'll be discussing some aspect of his writing that you're especially interested in talking about.
Another thought: If you find your discussion getting hijacked, try finding some posters who you think are seriously and respectfully discussing the issues and PM them to continue to discussion.