Not Religon...not Belief....Not Inerrancy: INTERPRETATION is christianity

by Terry 32 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    Hey Gang--happy to be back in the saddle.....

    I agree that a true premise should lead to the same answers.

    I also know history keeps teaching that what people who are christian really want from christianity is an ultimate answer.

    But, even if every christian says Jesus is the same answer, they radically disagree about even that.

    Mormon's have Jesus. JW's have Jesus, Scientologists acknowledge Jesus, Moslems accept Jesus as great prophet, Calvinists have a different Jesus, etc.

    Love, kindness, charity and such are not ONLY found among christians. Humans are capable of those emotions, actions and motivations on their own.

    I find it unecessary for any christian church to pretend to have all the answers to life's problems based on inerrancy.

    Churches are wonderful at allowing like-minded persons with gentle hearts to come together for singularity of purpose. They help each other under the umbrella idea of demonstrating God's love. That's fine and it works!

    Where churches tend to fail the members is in dividing human beings into devilish groups to be despised and opposed.

    Dividing humanity is a basic evil.

    To create doctrines of fear and death forces impressionable believers into wrong channels of negative and superstitious thinking.

    This helps nobody and can unhinge some.

    Mental health is very important, after all.

    Ask yourself how Mega churches fill the vast seating to capacity week after week. What message pulls people in? POSITIVE and not negative messaging.

    Instinctively, people know following a positive and hope-filled goal is healthier than hellfire, demons and marginalizing the "other".

    The rest, however, is just so much ritual....until you get to people helping each other.

    Jehovah's Witnesses use their teachings like Weed Killer. They go about spraying it on other people's lawns!

  • panhandlegirl
    panhandlegirl

    Terry, glad to see you're bacK. I believed the Bible was inerrent until I read "Misquoting Jesus" this year. It was quite a blow for me. It's also interesting that the Catholic Church chose which books would be included in the Bible.

    Some early translations were also changed according to who was doing the translating. The books have been essentialy translated correctly but there have been additions and changes according to some translater's interrpretation.

    PHG

  • panhandlegirl
    panhandlegirl

    I agree that different interrpretations of the Bible divide people. No religion/cult is more divisive that JWs. Other, more mainstream religions, are not quite as bad as JWs in denigrating others. When we see each other as people first,

    and how we intrerpret the Bible, or don't believe it is even God's word, as only an element/quality of another individual's life, we can see that we have much in common with them. We all need the same things to live a healthful and

    productive life. We need self-esteem and a feeling of security to maintain mental health. Although, Jesus did say, in Luke 12:51-53 (NWT) 51. "Do you imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell you, but rather

    division." I don't think he wanted division among his followers but that's interpretation, so what can I say?

  • stepkimb
    stepkimb

    I disagree with your form of logic. The truthfullness of something isn't determined by whether or not there's different interpretations. Subjective truth not objective truth is only changed by the individual. If ten people jump into water that's 60 degrees, they will have different opinions about how warm or cold the water is. As they stay in longer some who said the water was cold will change their mind and say it is now warm. The truthfullness of how that water feels is subjected to the individual. The degree of that water is not subjected to the people. Therefore how cold or warm the water is will be an opinion since it's a truth that comes from each individual. If everyone has a different opinion about the water doesn't change the fact that it's 60 degrees. Whether the bible is inerrant or not is a truth that exist outside of the individuals just like the degree of the ater.

    Ho

  • okage
    okage

    @stepkimb the analogy of the people in the water may hold true in other examples where perception dictates belief, but it doesn't hold to Terry's point. If the water is 60 degrees, then there is something to measure the truth against perception. In the instance of the bible, there is nothing to differentiate fact from perception or interpretation as is Terry's point.

    Given the task of only being allowed to use the bible to study the bible, people come up with differing understandings. So religions use supplementals to curb those differences to their own interpretation. Otherwise, you'd be hard pressed to find a group who read ONLY the bible and came to the exact conclusions without any suggestions by an outside source.

    Using your analogy, they all have different perceptions of what the water is. Lets say one of them thinks the water is too cold and goes around telling the others the water is 40 degrees. Then she tells them why she firmly believes it's that cold and gives people experience after experience why she can recognize it as being 40 degrees. Now others believe it's 40 degrees, despite their own perception.

    Because of outside influences they perceive the water as being 40 degrees, even though the thermometer in the pool says 60.

    This is the basics of Christianity. Except there has never been a thermometer available, only a person who tells everyone the water is too cold. The lack of a thermometer invalidates your argument and supports everyone else's who posted on this thread.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Interpretation is the engine that drives theological change.

  • tec
    tec

    Good post, Terry, and I agree with you on most everything you stated (so long as we are looking at Christianity as the religion, rather than as being in union with Christ).

    I would perhaps make one amendment to your metaphor:

    Example: If a math book with equations were inerrant what would happen if every student in the world worked the equations?
    Answer: all students would achieve identical solutions.

    All students would acheive identical solutions IF all students understood their math. Which is never the case. So while the answer (Truth) is what it is... people don't always (or even rarely) grasp it.

    While pretending to use Martin Luther's sola scriptura (bible alone) the Watch Tower Society uses catholic Magesterium instead!

    Sobering, and awesome point.

    Peace to you (and glad you are feeling better)

    tammy

  • glenster
    glenster

    "Until Martin Luther came along there WAS one central "universal" (i.e.
    catholic) church) christian source authority."

    ?--sounds like a GB/Council of Jerusalem claim. see the article at the next
    link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination

    A better analogy than faith in a possible God with a book of math, or the
    known of the world more generally, is with freedom of subjective reaction beyond
    the math of music. Different denominations are like different songs in the same
    style (similar to the point Paul makes in Rom.14 and elsewhere) except for some
    orthodox branches, which restrict freedom of subjective reaction in a stance of
    being final arbitars of taste. I would recommend freedom of subjective reaction
    to the math of music as I would separation of church and state.

    As mentioned in the Wikipedia quote below, the bigger tension is between or-
    thodox/conservative and liberal/progressive/reform. As usual, I'd recommend
    liberal/progressive reform as better at keeping up to speed with the known God
    is possible beyond and, seeing it as a hope for a possible, not proven, God, not
    wanting any harm over it.

    Orthodox/conservative is where you're more likely to find claims proof of God/
    inerrant Bible, religion made law of the land--something the NT Christians
    didn't ask for but Islamists or many Republicans do, defense of old interpreta-
    tion of old texts despite increasing knowledge, restriction of rights or worse
    for women and LGBT people, arguments against evolution, etc.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_infallibility

    "Some Christians view denominationalism as a regrettable fact. As of 2011
    divisions are becoming less sharp, and there is increasing cooperation between
    denominations (See denomination for a distinction between denomination and
    association in religious governance), although relations between Liberal
    Christians and Conservative Christians remain tense.

    Theological denominationalism ultimately denies reality to any apparent
    doctrinal differences among the "denominations", reducing all differences to
    mere matters de nomina ("of names").

    A denomination in this sense is created when part of a church no longer feel
    they can accept the leadership of that church as a spiritual leadership due to
    a different view of doctrine or what they see as immoral behaviour, but the
    schism does not in any way reflect either group leaving the Church as a
    theoretical whole.

    This particular doctrine is, of course, unacceptable to those Christian groups
    that see themselves as being the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church"
    as a whole. This includes Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholicism and the Oriental
    Orthodoxy, each of which claims to be the subsistence of the exclusive "Holy,
    Catholic, and Apostolic Church". In these churches, it is not possible to have
    a separation over doctrinal or leadership issues, and any such attempts auto-
    matically are a type of schism.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denominationalism

  • kepler
    kepler

    Terry,

    Good to see evidence of you punching away at the keyboards - here and on that other related topic. If I knew which topics would make you feel more like yourself, I'd come up with another one whether it means acting as straight man or not.

    When you made this entry, it brought back memories. Back about five years ago, when I first saw a home crisis brewing, someone close to me, seemingly out of the blue asked:

    "Don't you think you need to have someone explain to you the Bible, someone who is expert to teach you what it is all about?" In other words, someone to drop by with the booklet "What the Bible Really Teaches".

    But I didn't even know that. At that point it was "How odd!" Here she is with her presumed Protestant background telling me with my Catholic background that I need someone like a priest to explain doctrines derived from the Bible. Whose line was whose?

    And by coincidence, I happened to see a newly published book (by Alister McGrath) titled, "Chistianity's Dangerous Idea: The Protestant Revolution - A History from the 16th Century to the 21st". And after I read all 500 pages of it, I had to conclude that I wasn't hot on the trail of what she was talking about. Only colder. I could only conclude that Protestantism now had so many branches that many of them had turned 180 degrees from their point of departure.

    On page 221 there was brief mention of a group called Jehovah's Witnesses- Starting on 220:

    [Despite efforts for unity of belief]...

    "...Indeed the Reformation itself, by insisting on the right of all believers to read and interpret the Bible for themselves can be seen as a revolt against the quasi-papal centralization of authority.

    "One strategy of particular interest emerged during the 1980s, when some conservative Protestants, particularly in the US, began to characterize the Bible as 'infallible' or 'inerrant'. In doing so they were picking up on some themes from the 19th century writings of Benjamin Warfield, while giving them a new and significant emphasis. Yet this claim did not, as some had hoped, solve the problem of multiple interpretations. It is perfectly possible for an inerrant text to be interpreted incorrectly [ e.g., students with the math text]. Asserting the infallibility of the text merely accentuates the importance of the interpreter of that text. Unless the interpreter of the text is also thought to be infallible - a view that Protestantism has rejected, associating it with Catholic views of the church or the papacy- the issue of determining the right meaning of the Bible is not settled, or even addressed, by declaring the sacred text is infallible. The Jehovah Witnesses, for example, regard the Bible as infallible, yet interpret core passages in a way that most Protestants find unacceptable, especially in relation to the identity of Jesus of Nazareth.

    "...What distinguishes Protestantism at this point [in debate] is not allowing any authority above scripture, such as a pope or council. This principle is often affirmed using the Latin slogan Scriptura ipsius interpres (Scripture is its own interpreter). Whereas Catholicism resolves such tensions through magisterial pronouncements on the part of the teaching authority of the church, Protestantism recognizes no such authority above scripture. Such tensions must be resolved by means that will command support within Protestantism on account of the intrinsic merits, including their intellectual plausibility and their consonance with biblical witness as a whole."

    All right. Easier said than done. The author had another 300 pages to go.

    I discovered that my dearest had always assumed that Martin Luther was a family name of the King family. Nothing to do with anybody else. Back in the 160s BC, the orthodox Maccabean revolt started when Hellenized Jews started buying off the Seleucid Greek rulers to obtain their own high priesthood. Within a generation the Hasmonean heirs to the revolt were engaging in the same practice.

    But still, I would say that there are additional complications to right scriptural interpretation. For as shown by no more than translation and compilation, how can the Bible be inerrant if it contradicts itself? Or, as shown in some comparisons in another topic, if the original intent of the Hebrew or Greek words is unclear?

    In that regard I do sympathize with the Protestant plausibility argument. The alternative is much like throwing out all case law because some decisions seem clearly in error. If we throw it all out we have nothing to guide us and nothing to learn from.

    "Interpretation is Christianity"...?

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    Example: If a math book with equations were inerrant what would happen if every student in the world worked the equations?

    Answer: all students would achieve identical solutions.

    Heh. You've obviously never taken a math class.

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