Not Religon...not Belief....Not Inerrancy: INTERPRETATION is christianity

by Terry 32 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Terry

  Thanks for all the interesting responses and thoughtful ideas.

  Where do we start is always a good question to bring up first.

  For something to be "true" is must correspond to reality.

  While it is true we can have opinions about OUR RESPONSE to reality we cannot have our own opinions about factual matters of reality.

  Reality consists of WHAT IS. It must be something measurable. It must be perceptible (if not by the senses, by instruments) and demonstrable.

  The bible (and other religious tomes) aren't really matters of everyday reality as much as they are an accumulation of human imagination, folklore, folk history and word-of-mouth storytelling about numinous things.

  But, to me, this sort of discussing is on the edge of boring.

  I look at the impact of christianity on human personality.

  When belief provides comfort, hope and moral fidelity it is wonderfully beneficial.

  But, throw in the black and white thinking, finger pointing, demons and threats and it unsettles even the nicest people and creates anger, fear and murder.

  When something.....anything...makes you look at most of mankind as "other" than what you are....in fact, Evil or Enemy....that is just plain SICK.

  There is a fine line between decent people meeting together to praise what is beautiful and a cult of world haters who insist only they themselves are RIGHT.

  I started the topic to be a bit more practical. I didn't really want a philosophy discussion.

  Practically speaking, we become fools and children by shouting to each other: MY BOOK HAS NO ERRORS. ONLY I KNOW HOW TO READ IT PROPERLY.

  This is what JW's, in effect, go about doing.

  Evangelicals waste their energies puffing up with silliness about these matters.

  Sure, some groups deeply desire to prove themselves superior in righteousness. But, they only do so by descending into fantasy which they INSIST others share with them.

  Sharing a delusion is poor mental health.

  Shaking your fist at the calendar and proclaiming "The End is Near" is downright foolishly wasting an otherwise beautiful day outside filled with opportunity to DO SOMETHING FOR SOMEBODY.
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  Finkelstein

  Well said Terry

  I particularly liked this statement ......

  There is a fine line between decent people meeting together to praise what is beautiful and a cult of world haters who insist only

  they themselves are RIGHT.

  Pretty much describes religions like the JWS.

  I think its worthy to mention that INTERPRETATION also leads to self empowerment for men who strive to create it toward themselves.

  In doing so men have elevated their own self image of themselves and their personal stature of who they are.
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  panhandlegirl

  Terry wrote:

  But, throw in the black and white thinking, finger pointing, demons and threats and it unsettles even the nicest people and creates anger, fear and murder.

  When something.....anything...makes you look at most of mankind as "other" than what you are....in fact, Evil or Enemy....that is just plain SICK.

  There is a fine line between decent people meeting together to praise what is beautiful and a cult of world haters who insist only they themselves are RIGHT.

  You are so correct. I just had a conversation with the only female cousin who was not a jw, she has since decided to become one at the age of 69. The rest of her family have been jws since childhood. She informed me that I would not be welcomed at her home any longer unless I returned to the "truth" which she said I knew was the "truth." She told me that I knew that everything written in the WT was correct information directly from Jehovah because those in Bethel were not smart enough to know all that was printed in the wt. She actually did not know about the FDS and who the borg claims they are or about the GB or the teaching about who has a mediator and who doesn't. Yet, she asserted that they had the "truth" and were the only ones who did. I gave her my reasons for having left and left her with information to look up (conti case + other things). She is recovering from a heart attack so I did not want to agitate her any more than she already was agitating herself. Another one bites the dust! So I am now left with only four brothers, one male cousin (her brother) and one nephew, who do not shun me. I am sad about it, but OH Well, I will survive, with a little help from my friends!
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  james_woods

  I am not at all sure that Scientologists "acknowledge" Jesus - except in the highly negative sense.

  Where Islam supposedly claims that Jesus was a prophet (in certain sects or branches) - I think that Scientology actually actively rejects all Christian forms of religion. They have a sort of "Theocratic Strategy" of their own and suppress this teaching from the outer public because they realize that it is an unpopular position.

  In what I have learned from a casual examination of the Scientologists, I have never heard even a hint of anything positive being taught or said about the Jesus figure of the Bible - or anything positive or supportive of the Bible itself, for that matter.

  What they actually believe in their core doctrine is highly secretive - and it certainly has nothing to do with Christianity in any known form.
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  Terry

  In what I have learned from a casual examination of the Scientologists, I have never heard even a hint of anything positive being taught or said about the Jesus figure of the Bible - or anything positive or supportive of the Bible itself, for that matter.

  My very best friend, when I 1st moved from Texas to California, was a Scientologist named Mark Groseclose. He was a wonderful artist and a larger-than-life character who was part Bugs Bunny, part George Carlin and part noble-minded wack-job. I owe him a debt of friendship which cannot be repaid because he died in 1983 of liver disease.

  I spent so much time listening to Mark talk about Scientology I actually think I became a lay-expert!

  He took me to the Celebrity Center in downtown Hollywood. I took the so-called "personality test" and had free "auditing" and a tour of the mansion.

  Mark spent lots of time and money on his religion.

  He was a 24 hour a day beacon.

  Not too surprisingly, Mark was a Science Fiction fanatic, too. He introduced me to so many (still living) sci-fi actors and actresses that I was constantly in awe of all the people he knew.

  Scientologists refer to L.Ron Hubbard as simply "Ron."

  After all, we call Yeshua H. Christ "Jesus"! :)

  Mark had respect for Jesus as an early good teacher and being of advanced "knowingness".

  The goal of Scientology is to break free of "reacting" which is caused by "implants" that keep us from full self-actualization.

  Jesus is said to be just below that level of complete freedom (Operating Thetan).

  However, this is a ruse. At the higher levels of teaching, Jesus is "just an implant" and a fiction.

  But, things change.

  Public pronouncement can go either way.

  Church of Scientology administrator Peggy Crawford asserted to The Commercial Appeal: "Some Scientologists are Christians and believe Jesus was divine. Some don't. We believe Christianity is not the only way. [13]

  In my opinion, all "new" religions get a leg up by stealing from established religions and lip-service is paid to foundational noises as a stepping stone.

  Christianity and Islam grafted on to the history of the people of the Book.

  Mormons, JW's, Scientologists try and present themselves as a "new germ-free version" of older thought and teachings.

  Isn't it all fluff anyway?
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  james_woods

  Public pronouncement can go either way.

  Church of Scientology administrator Peggy Crawford asserted to

  The Commercial Appeal

  : "Some Scientologists are Christians and believe Jesus was divine. Some don't. We believe Christianity is not the only way.

  Yes, that is the Scientology "Theocratic Strategy" that I was thinking of. Trying to make it not so scary to possible converts who may be Christian.

  I also have a very good friend who was into Scientology very deeply (high level, member of the Sea Org - actually on the boat Apollo for a time with L. Ron Hubbard himself). He left their organization long ago - before Hubbard died.

  He says that at the higher levels there is a disdain for Christianity (and other religions) and that belief in these is viewed as a roadblock which would prevent the Scientology adherent from gaining the highest illumination (or whatever they call it.)

  Of course - who knows what they may be taught now that little twerp Miscaivage has control of it? They seem to make up new doctrine about as fast as the JWs do, and create their own language ten times as fast.
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  apostatethunder

  Not everybody has the same level of intelligence and moral quality. Claiming everybody is the same doesn’t change the fact that we are not.

  The Bible can not be compared with any other book, and its value is not determined by those who don’t get anything out of it.

  Loving your neighbour as yourself is one of those things that you don’t need a great deal of intelligence to comprehend, hence the simplicity and superiority of the Christian message.

  People that come selling their own flavour of “freedom“, tend to have their own agenda, and are usually just enslaving people in their own way.

  This week’s WT study was about “True Freedom”, a lesson in hypocrisy for anyone that cares to take it.
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  kepler

  Scientology...

  Sometimes the n degree of separation issue becomes fascinating. Scientology is not one of the things I ever tracked very closely, but I did notice that Elijah Muhammad was inspired as much by Joseph Rutherford's radio show as any conversation he might have had one day on a plane flight...

  I tried to find a similar connection between Rutherford and H. Ron, but so far to no effect.

  I did read a lot of science fiction when I was a kid, but I always heard of H. Ron's works, but never read them. Later, had a sneaking suspicion that Hubbard got an awful lot more prolific ( a so-called dekalogy) after he passed on to whatever scientology's award might be.

  But in the course of other enterprises, I discovered that one of my friends had worked in one of the publishing houses that published H Ron Hubbards' books. At the New York office H. Ron just simply let it be known one day... "I think I'd like to start a religion and make some money..."

  In that respect, whether subliminal or not, there might have been suggestion from someone just mentioned who made a similar observation.
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  Knowsnothing

  Loving your neighbour as yourself is one of those things that you don’t need a great deal of intelligence to comprehend, hence the simplicity and superiority of the Christian message. -apostatethunder

  I appreciate the sentiment. However, what it means to "do good" varies from person to person, culture to culture, etc. As an example, JW's think that by recommending others to avoid higher education, they are loving their neighbors as themselves, when in certain cases they may be hurting them! What's that saying, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"?
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  Quentin

  Christianity has NEVER been homogeneous. It has ALWAYS been fractured. From the founding of the primitive Church....the days of Peter, James, Paul, Timothy...to the great schism of Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholic, Coptic, Ebionites, Martin Luther, on and on. Fractured, splintered all being based on INTERPRETATION of whatever self contained holy script was at hand, and accepted as such.