by Christ Alone 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Sure, Elephant, but the point of the OP was that the article and illustration "went beyond" what's in the Bible
From the OP . I would like to find a single place in the Bible that describes Jesus in the way that it presents it here..
Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses claim a biblical basis for their "Spiritual Food" any more?
retro-
...then you must have forgotten that JW's believe that Jesus is also the ...archangel...
thus this visual representation is in perfect harmony with their teachings...
...the point wasnt to prove that there is 'proof' that Jesus has wings in heaven, the article i mean.
The Jehovah's Witnesses have never caught on to the fact that Jehovah was the pre-existent Jesus.
Whether you believe in the fall of man and the Garden of Eden or not, the entire idea behind the fall is that once Adam and Eve fell, they needed a mediator. Having cut themselves off from Elohim (Gods), the mediator had already been chosen — and that mediator was Jehovah, the God of Israel who was born into mortality as Jesus of Nazareth. That's why He spoke as Jehovah in the Old Testament and to John in the book of Revelation. Thus He had the same titles and the same authority, and in the New Testament it reads: “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ‘All power is given unto me in heaven and in Earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.’” (Matthew 28)
At the time Jesus said this, He had been crucified and resurrected. Now He had all power in heaven and Earth. No angel could attain this kind of power, intelligence and glory, for Jesus now had fulfilled His destiny. The scriptures state that Jehovah is the judge of mankind and all nations. And John confirmed that “The Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son.” (John 5:22) Thus, Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same. This becomes even more apparent in the book of Revelation: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8) Here He is called “the Lord” and the “Almighty.” And throughout the book He is clearly associated with the God of the Old Testament.
Now hear the words of the prophet Zechariah, who writes that when Jehovah comes with power and glory during the battle of Armageddon: “And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” Then he writes: “In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.” (Zechariah 12). Then in Revelation, John writes: “Behold, [Jesus] cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.” (Revelation 1)
Clearly, Jehovah and Jesus are the same. In the Old Testament, Jehovah will come and 1) the Jews will see Him who their fathers “pierced” and 2) [the Jews] shall “mourn for him as one mourns for his only son.” And they shall be “in bitterness for him as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” How the Jews could miss this is remarkable; how the Jehovah’s Witnesses could miss it is even more remarkable!
In Revelation, Jesus comes with the clouds and 1) all shall see him; and they also which “pierced” him, and 2) “and all kindreds of the earth shall “wail because of him.” So in both references, the Jews will all see him and in both they will mourn for him. There’s no way that Jehovah and Jesus could be two different entities. And when Jehovah comes, Zechariah notes that the grief shall be as if for “his only son,” and “shall be in bitterness for him, as…for his firstborn.” This prophecy’s references to an only son and a firstborn are distinctly messianic. The point is, when Jehovah returns and His feet stand upon the Mount of Olives, He will be the Son of God…his Firstborn.
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains…. (Zechariah 14:3-5)
In this prophecy, the “Lord” is clearly Jehovah, who will enter the fray on the side of the Jews. When the Jews see the wounds in his hands and feet, they will instantly realize who He is and that’s what will cause the grief and the lamentation amongst them. The entire Jewish nation will convert to Christianity in a day, but all the Earth will know that Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same.
Ummm...by the way, why do JW angels all have wings?
But, Elephant. This is a Public Watchtower, no? See, here in this system of things, when we address people whose beliefs differ from ours we present a factual or logical argument for our point of view, rather than a kiddie picture assuming it. . .
Retro
Elephant, my point was that
1. Nowhere in the bible was Jesus ever called an angel. In fact just the opposite. Hebrews 1:4 says that Jesus is greater than angels and vs 6 states that all the angels are to worship Jesus. Beyond that I was pointing out that there is no scriptural support that Jesus has the wings of an angel.
2. My point about Jesus name vs the mistranslated name "Jehovah" is this: the bible says that Jesus name is above ALL other names. You, as a jw Elephant, claim that you ONLY believe what the bible teaches and you do not go beyond what is written. I am merely pointing out that this is proof of dishonesty and going beyond what the bible says. Nowhere is there any SHRED of proof that Jesus nor any other OT writer EVER use the name Jehovah.
And no, Elephant, my argument wasn't just with the picture. They were obviously trying to make their point that before his birth, Jesus existed as Michael the archangel. It was their attempt to push the idea that Jesus is Michael. Interestingly, I'd you tell a JW that Jesus is also Jehovah, they will say that doesn't make sense. But If you say that Jesus is also Michael, they say, yes that makes sense. No logic for jws. Just mindless belief of the watchtower.
I guarantee that if "new light" comes out in the next watchtower that Jesus is NOT Michael, then jws will fight just as hard to prove to people that he is not michael. This in itself shows that they do not have beliefs based on their knowledge of the bible, but it is only based on believing what they are told to believe by the watchtower. You, elephant, are a perfect example of this, and I hope you one day come to that realization and learn to get past the mind control that the watchtower has over you.
Retro-
A public Watchtower, yes, but a Watchtower with JW’s beliefs nonetheless…
You wrote-
when we address people whose beliefs differ from ours we present a factual or logical argument for our point of view, rather than a kiddie picture assuming it. . .
…except religion is not factual based is it? otherwise we would not be having this discussion, right? Christ alone’s point is based on his own parameters he’s set for his mind and comprehension…and he assumes any other interpretation is false… that sounds a little like any person whose confident in his own beliefs…
Christ alone-
Elephant, my point was that
1. Nowhere in the bible was Jesus ever called an angel. In fact just the opposite. Hebrews 1:4 says that Jesus is greater than angels and vs 6 states that all the angels are to worship Jesus. Beyond that I was pointing out that there is no scriptural support that Jesus has the wings of an angel.
1-again…JW’s can make this statement because they believe Jesus is the Archangel…quick question, is there support for angels having wings?
2. My point about Jesus name vs the mistranslated name "Jehovah" is this: the bible says that Jesus name is above ALL other names. You, as a jw Elephant, claim that you ONLY believe what the bible teaches and you do not go beyond what is written. I am merely pointing out that this is proof of dishonesty and going beyond what the bible says. Nowhere is there any SHRED of proof that Jesus nor any other OT writer EVER use the name Jehovah.
2. interesting idea…so your belief is that Jesus IS superior to Jehovah? (because his names is above all others.)
His name is Iesous Xristo, not Jesus, Jesus is blasphemy
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40327&page=1
And the worshippers of the name JESUS worship an out of context name, that Paul never knew
JESUS is not a Iewish name, it doesn't belong to their tongue and it is strange to their ears: Flavius Iosephus, Saulos of Tarsos and the 72 elders of the Septuagint NEVER mentioned the name JESUS
The 72 writers of the Septuagint, Saulos of Tarsos and Flavius Iosephus mentioned the name of 4 vowels IEsOUs
The messiah's name is not "Jesus". The letter 'j' didn't even exist until the 6th century and "sus/seus" means "pig". BLASPHEMY!! His name is Emmanuel, 'saviour'=Yashiya in the Hebrew. Please stop calling the son of God a "pig"
